[ziggee25]

Hi all, I am new to this forum, so first of all let me tell you a little about myself.
I am over 60 years of age and retired. I have kept cichlids as a hobby for approx 2years, and have just taken an interest in doing a little bit of breeding, and selling the fry to recoup a little money to help pay for their upkeep.(not easy)
I have a 4foot main tank in the house, and several breeding/fry tanks in my garage, so although i am retired, I seem to be busier now than when I was at work.
I will of course be listing photos of my fish/tanks as time permits, and of course will try and increase my knowledge by asking quite a few questions on various subjects, one of which is about to happen.
My question at this time is, that at the present time a number of cichlid keepers in the UK seem to insist on having to own and breed so called 'Wild Caught' species, so as they can sell the fry as F1 listed.
Do or have the members of this forum that supposedly have such species, have any absolute proof that the fish they have are wild? Have they actually been to the lakes and actually caught them in person? If so, how did they transport them back to their home? Or as I suspect, that they have been captive bred in another country(Africa maybe) on a fish farm and sold unscrupulously as being wild caught? Do they have certificates to verify they are genuinely wild caught as do some Arowana species?
Your views on this subject would be much appreciated, and apologies if I have inadvertently offended anyone.
Thanks.

 

[fmueller]

Welcome to the forum. You know about the way to make a small fortune with breeding cichlids, right? You have to start with a large fortune :lol:

Kidding aside, there is only one way to know a fish is wild caught - you need to trust the seller who tells you that it is! It's the same with F1. So for anybody paying big dollars for WC or F1 fish, it's buyer beware! Personally I prefer to buy tank raised juveniles and grow them up myself. You certainly save a lot of money that way, I find it fun to watch the fish grow up, and there is little doubt that quality fish don't have to be WC or F1. If you can show good quality photos of stunning looking parents, people will buy your fish even if they are tank raised.

Regarding bringing fish back home from the wild, I certainly know people who have legally done this, even though it might not be feasible for the average aquarist. Here in the US it's obviously easier to bring cichlids back from South and Central America, but in Europe there are also people who visit the Rift lakes and bring back fish from there. The price of doing that dwarfs anything you might pay for WC fish at a dealer, but for a lot of folks a trip like that can be the experience of a lifetime!

Last but not least, the WC/F1 debate is highly controversial. I'll take this opportunity to remind anybody posting in this thread to keep it factual and remain civilized :thumb:

 

[tirzo13]

I have been diving in Africa and helped at a collection station.

There are collectors on Lake Tanganyika that have vats and thus breed fish.
I know of at least 2 that do it.

On Malawi, the late Stuart Grant planned to breed hard to find species in vats (i have plenty of pictures of all the huge vats) but for some reason he could not get his workers to do certain things.
Stuart's place is pretty much the only collector on the west side of the lake, i'm not sure what goes on on the east side of Malawi.

If you are getting cichlids from Stuart place Malawi, i can assure you with 100% they are WC as i have been there, though they have the potential and had planned to breed fish, it is just not happening.
If they are coming from Tanganyika, it really depends on the collector and the fish.
They could be vat raised, and your dealer then sells them as WC simply because they came from Africa.
As fuel prices get higher, more fish from Tanganyika will be vat raised.

As far as bringing back fish, I could have brought back fish from Malawi, but not worth it to bring back a single box of fish, so in order for it to be worthwhile i would have to bring back many boxes.
Pretty much $10k worth of fish when all i wanted was just a few species.
Pretty much same with Tanganyika with the permits and getting them to the collector more complicated.
Its really easier just to deal with a US dealer and let him deal with the payments and headaches.
I'm bringing home some fish from South America, but its much easier situation than doing it from Africa to USA.

And if you have a desire to visit the lakes, PM me, i will be going back again this year, unless i'm in the Amazon.

here is my Malawi trip pix, its also covered in last months special ACA issue which was devoted to the trip.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... highlight=

 

[Glaneon]

Ziggee, that's why I laugh when I see "F1 or WILD CAUGHT!!!" (with the required exclamation marks) in Aquabid.

There's no proof. I even caught a guy on Aquabid stating the fish were F1.. then in the same paragraph; "these were line-bred for optimal color".

Seriously?

Reputable (read: expensive) sites are likely the only ones to really have the WC's.

That being said, I have picked up some F1s of Mbuna from a LFS that's reputable & some WC Rams (much more common than malawi fish). Do I know for sure? No, but this is not a cheap LFS.

 

[prov356]

I just look for quality fish at a price I'm willing to pay. I really don't care how far removed from the lake they are. I only buy 'WC' if I can't find any that are labeled otherwise, and it's a hard to find fish.

 

[Number6]

like Glaneon, you start to get a feel pretty quickly for how trustworthy the seller is... if they complain about the airline holding up a shipment from Africa and losing $3000 worth of cichlids, they are true importers. If they show you tank after tank and one is full of "dragonblood watchamakalits superfragalistic" wild caughts, then they are a crook or stupid or both. :lol:

 

[prov356]

My question at this time is, that at the present time a number of cichlid keepers in the UK seem to insist on having to own and breed so called 'Wild Caught' species, so as they can sell the fry as F1 listed.

I would just focus on raising quailty fish and selling them as tank raised. Your prices will be better than the others, and I think you'll do fine with moving your fish. There'll be plenty of buyers asking the same questions you are, who won't be willing to pay 'F1' prices for fish that look no better than yours.

 

[ziggee25]

Thank you all for your opinions on this subject, and I hope that it will not develop into a heated discussion. But it seems that from some of your comments that you believe that the more expensive the dealer is asking for a particlur species, then it must be wild caught!!.
So if I were to breed a specimen in my tank I could ask say $5, but if I were to say the same fish is wild caught and I will sell for $25, you would buy the $25 fish because it has to be wild caught because of the price!!
I would certainly go for the tank bred fish any time.

 

[prov356]

But it seems that from some of your comments that you believe that the more expensive the dealer is asking for a particlur species, then it must be wild caught!!.

No, I think we all agreed that it's all about the trustworthiness of the seller.

So if I were to breed a specimen in my tank I could ask say $5, but if I were to say the same fish is wild caught and I will sell for $25, you would buy the $25 fish because it has to be wild caught because of the price!!

If you were a home breeder selling fish out of your basement, I really don't think anyone would pay you WC prices.

 

[Number6]

but if I were to say the same fish is wild caught and I will sell for $25, you would buy the $25 fish because it has to be wild caught because of the price!!

Nobody implied nor said that price was a factor... me thinks you are looking to challenge instead of listen to our replies.

 

[tirzo13]

Kind of twisting around things.

WC fish DO cost more, since they have to be caught and shipped.

Simply because someone charges too much for a fish does not mean they are wild caught.

ALot depends on the fish and location.

I paid about $35 for wild caught Calvus.
Adult F1 or F2 would be about the same price, due to the length of time to reach adulthood.

Adult Electric Yellows, i can find all day for $10.
I would gladly pay $100 for a trio of wild caughts.

Some fish it does not matter if wild caught or not, the price will be close to the same, some the WC will be alot more.
All clown loaches are WC as they are extremly difficult to breed, only by chance has a breeding happened as far as i know, and the price of them is not out of this world.

 

[fmueller]

All clown loaches are WC as they are extremly difficult to breed, only by chance has a breeding happened as far as i know, and the price of them is not out of this world.

It is true that clown loaches have not been bred in the hobby except for a few chance events that were not reproducible. However, I don't think what you see in the stores has been wild caught in the true sense of the word. As far as I know clown loaches are bred on commercial fish farms in SE Asia - presumably using means like hormone treatment that are not usually available to the hobby breeder.

This is going a bit off topic, but the original question seems to have been answered twice over already, so no harm done.