Cichlid Fish Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 47 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
228 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So when I first started, I was inexperienced and I had a Elec Yellow and a Electric Blue breed. Then I had a bunch of rather cool looking hybrids. I think I saved a total of 4 that made it to maturity even though I started with like 17 fry. Parents Died when I was away at college.

Then I had the two dang hybrids breed and produce what is currently like 7 fry at various stages of growth. They are populating my tank for me.

Now I have a tank full of hybrids, not at all bad looking (even though the new fry could be) and they aren't overly aggressive either.

I don't really want to keep them as I am going to either do my new tank in male female pairs or I am going to do a peacock show tank.

I really like the challenge of keeping a mixed tank of peacocks and Mbuna, although I haven't had much success with Haps, I want to try again when I do to a 125. to see if the greater space as well as the better setup will help. The Mbuna should gravitate towards the rocky the PEacocks and Haps should be peaceful in the open water areas I am planning.

I have three awesome Syndotis Catfish and a lame pleco which I don't want either.

The biggest question is what to do with the hybrids. I don't want to give them to a pet store (Bad for hte hobby) and I could give them away free I suppose, but not many people want hybrid cichlids.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,646 Posts
If you give them away, they'll end up out on the market or their fry will. If you don't want these fish, it's best to just euthanize them. Depending on their size, there are various methods to doing this. Some are a bit more violent than others.

If they're small, you could take them to an LFS that would be willing to throw them into a tank of large predators, they won't last long.

Freezing, clove oil or quick decapitation are some of the more common methods.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,702 Posts
If you find it distasteful to put the fish down, you can always ask a fellow hobbyist. I have put fish down for friends in the hobby, and there is likely someone in your area that would help.

I really appreciate that you have asked for help rather than just dumping them on the hobby.

To everyone in general, this is why I am opposed to hybrids. Life happens, things change, and suddenly you no longer have room for your hybrids. Putting fish down as fry is much easier to do than when they grow up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
I love this web site, but this is the one issue that I think many people are ridiculous about. If it's a healthy nice looking fish, give them away if you don't want them. To kill them is just silly.

"Dump them into the hobby"? They are fish...give me a break!!

Maybe we should euthanize all puppies that are mutts, they aren't natural...
or even worse what about people who have kids that aren't any particular race, should we euthanize them?

Come on people!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
825 Posts
Kilpo said:
I love this web site, but this is the one issue that I think many people are ridiculous about. If it's a healthy nice looking fish, give them away if you don't want them. To kill them is just silly.

"Dump them into the hobby"? They are fish...give me a break!!

Maybe we should euthanize all puppies that are mutts, they aren't natural...
or even worse what about people who have kids that aren't any particular race, should we euthanize them?

Come on people!
Oh oh :eek: :eek: :eek: ..... :lol:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,422 Posts
Kilpo said:
I love this web site, but this is the one issue that I think many people are ridiculous about. If it's a healthy nice looking fish, give them away if you don't want them. To kill them is just silly.

"Dump them into the hobby"? They are fish...give me a break!!

Maybe we should euthanize all puppies that are mutts, they aren't natural...
or even worse what about people who have kids that aren't any particular race, should we euthanize them?

Come on people!
I would suggest you do a search and read up on all the rebuttals to your arguments... this discussion is an old one. No need for repeats unless there's a new point to go over.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,646 Posts
Kilpo said:
I love this web site, but this is the one issue that I think many people are ridiculous about. If it's a healthy nice looking fish, give them away if you don't want them. To kill them is just silly.

"Dump them into the hobby"? They are fish...give me a break!!

Maybe we should euthanize all puppies that are mutts, they aren't natural...
or even worse what about people who have kids that aren't any particular race, should we euthanize them?

Come on people!
:roll:

Number6 said:
I would suggest you do a search and read up on all the rebuttals to your arguments... this discussion is an old one. No need for repeats unless there's a new point to go over.
I couldn't agree more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
228 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
My hybrids are nice looking and healthy, so I could keep them myself and monitor for aggressive behavior.

I don't think giving them to a fellow hobbyist would mean they would show up on the market, in fact, some people are casual hobbyists and just want something to look at in their tanks. Cheap and free fish are great for them and they don't usually care enough to ever sell their fish to a LFS or breed them for distribution. Most of these tanks are all mutt tanks anyways, so no risk to the hobby.

I agree on the reasons not to breed for hybrids or giving them to a LFS under some other breed.

However, I do think putting down a fish is a bit extreme, unless they are killing other fish. I'll just keep them, monitor them, and when I move to my 125 the Haps will hunt the fry anyways, so no new fry that I don't want will survive or at least very few.

Killing fish is a bit extreme. Letting the fry get eaten is natural (You don't have to save them). However, I have several larger fish now, one that is 4.5" and my larger fish don't bother the dang fry, they are swimming along side my 7" BumbleBee. When I add Haps, they will learn quick...

Anyhow, accidentally killing fish is easier than what you make it out to be. I had one jump out of a bucket, whoops. I had one jump out of the tank (he squeezed out next to the HOB filters, found him behind the tank.

I had an elec yellow swim into a filter bag, couldn't escape, died, then I had a pleco go in there to eat the remains, trapped and died as well. (That one was very strange)

I've had smaller fish get sucked onto the filter intake and can't shake free and die, some get crushed by falling rocks, etc.

There are about 101 ways a cichlid could die that isn't you killing them.

I did have to kill one cichlid, because he murdered ever other fish he came into contact with, but that was extreme case.

The easiest way to do it, is just deprive them of water. It happens to fish all the time, when I go fishing the fish die because they drown in air. So it is really not so sad to me for that to be the method.

I've heard Cichlids are quite tasty, anyone every eat them? Lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
"The easiest way to do it, is just deprive them of water. It happens to fish all the time, when I go fishing the fish die because they drown in air. So it is really not so sad to me for that to be the method."

Hmm. It might be easy, but it seems to be one of the crueller methods to me.
 
G

·
I love it when the dog comparison comes in to the arguement. :lol: It's priceless. And then inevitably mixed race arguement as well.

Bottomline is this is just a difference of opinion. No one can prove the impact of hybrid being released to the market. Or is there a study? :D Do whatever you want to do. It won't make any difference in the hobby or the gene pool of the fish. But then, that's just my opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,646 Posts
acrosstic said:
I don't think giving them to a fellow hobbyist would mean they would show up on the market
It's impossible for anyone to make this claim and it's naive for anyone to believe it. Fish can breed into the the hundreds and thousands over a lifetime and their offspring can do the same. Once you give even one away to a fellow hobbyist, you cannot guarantee that any offspring produced won't end up on the market.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
The dog comparison is a good one, please tell me why it isn't?

Some say you need to keep it natural and make sure you don't mix species well, having fish in a fish tank isn't natural by itself. The fish in a tank are not going to act as they would in the wild. Fish in a fish tank are there for the owners enjoyment in watching them, not for scientific research on their natural behavior. Who cares if these fish show up on the market....They are fish in a fish tank for Pete's sake!!!!!

For me, I say who the heck cares if these fish are at pet stores. Do you really think these hybrids from the fish tank are somehow going to make it to Lake Tanganyika or Lake Malawi? I would love to somehow breed my Calvus with my Blue Dolphin, that could be some cool looking offspring. Heck, then I could fly to Tanzania, release them into the lake and create my own species. What do you think of the name Cyrtocara Altolamprologus Calvhap Kilpo black?

I guess we would have to agree to disagree!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,422 Posts
Kilpo said:
The dog comparison is a good one, please tell me why it isn't?
Assuming you did the search, read through the many many discussions, if you still have this question, then I'll explain it one more time...

Comparing breed crosses in dogs to breed crosses fish would be fair... if one makes a labradoodle then it's still a full dog and the only people who will be miffed are the ones who buy a labradoodle x poodle x poodle puppy expecting a poodle only to have non poodle like traits.

Comparing a breed level cross to a wild variant, sub species, species or genus level crosses isn't right because the effects are completely different. When you mix fish that are MORE different than the parents at a breed level are, then the problems tend to be bigger problems...

Kilpo said:
The fish in a tank are not going to act as they would in the wild. Fish in a fish tank are there for the owners enjoyment in watching them, not for scientific research on their natural behavior. Who cares if these fish show up on the market....They are fish in a fish tank for Pete's sake!!!!!
I've spent a ton of money on fish JUST for the behaviors... why is my (and many others) value we place on behavior not important? It is... and I'm sure you aren't suggesting that they aren't.

MOST behaviors in cichlids do seem to be viewable in large enough aquariums... so there is alot to be said for keeping fish that will look like, act like and be like the fish that we see in books and videos of the lakes we one day want to visit.

I agree with you that anti-hybrid attitudes can be a bit overboard... e.g. lumping all hybrids in to one single category while thinking line bred oddities are just peachy is one example... but to swing the opposite direction and say that there is NO problem with hybrids is just as ill-thought out.

There are problems... the only debate should be about how significant those problems are.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
228 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Joea said:
acrosstic said:
I don't think giving them to a fellow hobbyist would mean they would show up on the market
It's impossible for anyone to make this claim and it's naive for anyone to believe it. Fish can breed into the the hundreds and thousands over a lifetime and their offspring can do the same. Once you give even one away to a fellow hobbyist, you cannot guarantee that any offspring produced won't end up on the market.
LOL. Okay so I can't be 100% certain. However, even the people that think hybrids are all fine and good wouldn't be stupid enough to sell them to a pet store...even if they were that stupid...then another aquariust would have to buy the hybrids to put in his tank with endangered cichlids that would cause the dilution of the gene pool, which I doubt a cichlid keeper would do if he had those species. There are so many levels the system would have to break down in, that you can be sure that it is EXTREMELY RARE.

Add to that, if I gave them away, I'd inform them that these cichlids are not to be given to a LFS or pet store and that a person who wants hybrids are probably not people who are going to be trying to distribute cichlids, and even if they do would probably only be to people who want hybrids or people with few if any cichlids at risk or dissappearing in the hobby due to this. Example. do you really think an Electric Yellow is going to dissappear in the hobby or a red zebra?

The only reason hybrids are bad is if they happen to come into contact with species at risk of dissappearing in the hobby. It is up to us to make sure if we have one of those that we aren't breeding them with a hybrid, but otherwise what is the risk to the hobby? Is some small amount of genetic material from my electric blue going to eventually show up in electric yellows in the pet stores in like 20 years? Even if they do, isn't that nature? You don't think we have all the different species because they cross breed over a period of time?

Preserving endangered species is the goal, so if you are breeding them, it is up to you to make sure you don't buy from a place where you could get a hybrid of that species. My LFS doesn't take fish because of this. I have confidence in their fish for that reason. Are we supposed to make sure our LFS is responsible? **** yeah, but that is with where we spend our money.

Saying I have to kill my hybrids is stupid!

The better way to handle it, rather than say they can't get out is to say we have to handle them responsibly.

I'll make sure I don't give them to a pet store and intruct the new owners of them not to. That way the hybrids are responsibly handled without having to kill them, and we can be reasonsible enough not to allow fish store or breeders to get them. If each owner of a hybrid passes them on armed with knowledge that they are hybrids that shouldn't be breed with other fish, then that is enough to keep the hybrids for causing any harm in the hobby as long as we are responsible enough.

It is shady breeders and stores that cause the problems, but they will continue to do that regardless of what we do. We need to preserve the species at risk, that doesn't always have to mean killing hybrids. We need to create a system in which both can happen, because they both do happen. Not kill hybrids to keep them out of the hobby when they are going to get in regardkess if what we do. We should be responsible enough to let hybrids live, but make sure they don't get with our endangered species.

We've got mbuna, peacock, hap tanks, why not a hybrid tank where we can keep hybrids out of shady breeders tanks without killing them? They aren't all ugly and if you ever get a mbuna that is killing everything in your tank, you can just drop him into the hybrid tank and not worry about him killing so much. If the hybrids tempraments are bad as has been so suggested, then a nasty mbuna would fit in nicely in a hybrid tank.

Both sides of the argument are extreme. We need to pay attention to what we are doing with hybrids, but to suggest they aren't already out there is stupid and having to kill them for fear "they will get out" as if they aren't already is stupid.

We don't want them getting crossed with endangered species means keeping them out of the pet and fish stores. If you feel you have to kill them, fine, but I'd rather let them live in my tank or give them to another hobbyist that understands.

Setting up hybrid tanks is the best idea I've had. Why not? Getting hybrids as knowledgable hobbyist ensures they don't get into the LFS and into the gene pools of otehr species and they don't look half bad. Maybe you get lucky an a cross looks cool (Like my first batch).

Wow, that was long, but I just think both sides are a bit out of whack here.

I'll post some pics of my hybrids when I can.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
842 Posts
had to kill my sole hybrid yesterday..........death by 55,000 gallon swimming pool, she was used as a dither to help cycle new tanks but with their unpredictable behavior and unpredictable aggression she decieded to go after my breeding group of O.Lithobates "z rock"........and we can't have that.

Bottom line kilpo, it's thinking like yours and actions of others that keep places like Wal Mart, Petsmart, and Petco with their fish departments in business. No disrespect intented but I'm so sick of seeing these posts and I always say I'm not going to read but my curiosity of ignorance and uninformed people compels me to take a glance. I with several other local breeders work our butts off to ensure that through conservation and selective breeding we allow this hobby to thrive in the future.

btw, who keeps and breeds dogs as a hobby? besides michael vick
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
842 Posts
acrosstic-

still don't believe that yellow labs and red zebras are dissapearing in the hobby, go to 10 local fish stores and buy one of each, bring em home and let me know what you find out :eek:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,422 Posts
Acrosstic, your argument is not without merit, but try and take it further forward in time...

When the hybrids breed and produce another 50 hybrids, how many tanks are you going to setup?

What about when those 50 pair up and each pair has 50 more fry?

What is 25 times 50? 1250? Where will you house 1250 fish?

As for the suggestion that the only reason that hybrids can be bad being the pollution of one of the parental groups... well, no... that's not true.

Inbreeding after outcrossing (on average) produces the highest number of deformities of any pairing of fish... so when you give away hybrids, people have only one choice... they let them inbreed or the cross to an unrelated mix. Think about the consequences of that choice...

There's also the problems of the unknown effects of gene combos previously untried and add to that the odd effect of hybrids often being far more aggressive than either parental species.

Face it... eventually any breeder has to put down some fry... it's only a matter of time if you are good at breeding and rearing fry... I've had to put down purebred rfit lake cichlids and pure Apistogramma fry... why are hybrid fry any different than them?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
thevein said:
had to kill my sole hybrid yesterday..........death by 55,000 gallon swimming pool, she was used as a dither to help cycle new tanks but with their unpredictable behavior and unpredictable aggression she decieded to go after my breeding group of O.Lithobates "z rock"........and we can't have that.

Bottom line kilpo, it's thinking like yours and actions of others that keep places like Wal Mart, Petsmart, and Petco with their fish departments in business. No disrespect intented but I'm so sick of seeing these posts and I always say I'm not going to read but my curiosity of ignorance and uninformed people compels me to take a glance. I with several other local breeders work our butts off to ensure that through conservation and selective breeding we allow this hobby to thrive in the future.

btw, who keeps and breeds dogs as a hobby? besides michael vick
I suddenly realize this forum is not for me anymore. My tanks are full of hybrids and I love them all.
Bye everyone!
:( Loretta
 
1 - 20 of 47 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top