Tropheus sp. red Chipimbi and mixing
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I would not mix any red sp. with any moorii.
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morrii is the only described name they could be put under.
They are though the undescribed species of "Sp Red" part of this.
They cross breed with Rainbow moorii like Kasanga sometimes.
Or I guess (Kambwimba) "Red Rainbow"
I kept Reds and Rainbows together but had to cull some fry.
The crosses are very hard to spot. Only showing they are crosses at about 21/2"
Very much recommend you do not repeat my mistake. 8)
They are though the undescribed species of "Sp Red" part of this.
They cross breed with Rainbow moorii like Kasanga sometimes.
Or I guess (Kambwimba) "Red Rainbow"
I kept Reds and Rainbows together but had to cull some fry.
The crosses are very hard to spot. Only showing they are crosses at about 21/2"
Very much recommend you do not repeat my mistake. 8)
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Sp.REds are the absolute worst at making Hybrids, they are not safe mixes with anything other than Duboisi type.
Anytime you have them mixed, you got to examine all your fry really close, or you'll find your self in trouble with Hybrid fish that got to be destroyed or extremely isolated.
Anytime you have them mixed, you got to examine all your fry really close, or you'll find your self in trouble with Hybrid fish that got to be destroyed or extremely isolated.
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I was at a presentation where Dr. Loiselle said none of the Tropheus would breed outside their group. It was a few years ago. Has he changed that part of the talk? I don't mind raising up different easily distinguished fry together, but when they get to be breeding age, I want single species tanks, even after hearing the doctor.geoff_tropheus said:
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Experts hey, we all live and learn?
When I had Reds and Rainbows together yep I was telling folk they would not X-breed. :lol:
Now I know better.
When I had Reds and Rainbows together yep I was telling folk they would not X-breed. :lol:
Now I know better.
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Please forgive me for not knowing who Dr.Loiselle is, but I can tell you in keeping Tropheus for 11 years now, that sp.reds are the worst hybrid makers, and all tropehus but Duboisi have potential to make hybrids with other Tropheus, that is as long as you do not mix two different Duboisi types. Duboisi is the only safe mix.Mcdaphnia said:
I am in no way bashing Dr.Loiselle, but I have read in books and magazines in English and German for several years now, where they all warn against any mixing of Tropheus variants for fear of hybridization. I am not sure where Dr.Loiselle is getting the information that he/she is presenting, but sounds like they need to go back to square one and pick up any book on Tropheus and read.
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I am not sure of the year but Dr. Loiselle gave his talk on cichlids at the Christmas banquet of the Greater Cincinnati Aquarium Society, probably about ten years ago, so you may have just been starting with Tropheus. I don't recall if the reds were even yet in the hobby then, so what he said might have been more accurate if just duboisei, brichardi (then), and moori were the groups.
Here is a link to a bio of the doctor.
http://www.cichlid.org/Loiselle_Conservation_Fund.html
and a book he wrote in '94, which I forgot to take with me and get signed by the author.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/searc ... 20Loiselle
I was attuned to his statement about Tropheus because I'd been breeding them and had always kept them entirely separate. I had a female kaiser who resembled the duboisei in having the broad band, but no blue face. So to test his theory, I put her in with a colony of Maswa. I knew if she ever held, the eggs would be hybrid and I'd destroy them, but even after spending months with the duboisei she never held once. Still, my idea of acceptable mixes are one cichlid species, one livebearer species, and optionally, one rainbowfish and/or catfish species. I assume that one mouthbrooding cichlid species and one substrate cichlid species would aalmost certainly be OK, but I prefer not to take the chance. If you've seen the videos of catfish spawning at the same time as Malawi cichlids, it makes one aware of how the gametes can be flying around.
Here is a link to a bio of the doctor.
http://www.cichlid.org/Loiselle_Conservation_Fund.html
and a book he wrote in '94, which I forgot to take with me and get signed by the author.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/searc ... 20Loiselle
I was attuned to his statement about Tropheus because I'd been breeding them and had always kept them entirely separate. I had a female kaiser who resembled the duboisei in having the broad band, but no blue face. So to test his theory, I put her in with a colony of Maswa. I knew if she ever held, the eggs would be hybrid and I'd destroy them, but even after spending months with the duboisei she never held once. Still, my idea of acceptable mixes are one cichlid species, one livebearer species, and optionally, one rainbowfish and/or catfish species. I assume that one mouthbrooding cichlid species and one substrate cichlid species would aalmost certainly be OK, but I prefer not to take the chance. If you've seen the videos of catfish spawning at the same time as Malawi cichlids, it makes one aware of how the gametes can be flying around.
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I assume we are speaking about Dr. Paul V. Loiselle. He is indeed a well known expert/author with several species named after him.
http://www.cichlidae.com/author.php?id=37
That being said, even experts don't always agree on things amongst themselves... I do trust the collective hands-on experience of people on this forum though. The collective expertise here is huge, even though most individual contributors will not have books or species to their credit. Perhaps the likelihood of hybridization may partly depend on the circumstances under which the fish are being studied?
Edit: hadn't seen the previous post while typing this.
http://www.cichlidae.com/author.php?id=37
That being said, even experts don't always agree on things amongst themselves... I do trust the collective hands-on experience of people on this forum though. The collective expertise here is huge, even though most individual contributors will not have books or species to their credit. Perhaps the likelihood of hybridization may partly depend on the circumstances under which the fish are being studied?
Edit: hadn't seen the previous post while typing this.
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Its possible I will be able to talk to Dr. Loiselle on the 12th or 13th of April, BCA Convention at which he is speaking. Maybe I will get a chance to ask him what he thinks. :wink:
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I have seen hybrids outside of the groups.....I would not do it.
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It will be interesting to see that if he has changed his mind, if he remembers his earlier position on Tropheus hybridizing. Certainly enough has happened with all the new varieties sort of filling in the spaces between earlier known types and possibly natural hybrids to justify a new opinion.24Tropheus said:
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I have heard the same thing for years, andrugger said:
repeated it. I think it is based on this quote from The Cichlid Aquarium, Revised Edition 1994, Page 282:"...many (Tropheus) are notably disinclined to regard any but representatives of their own phenotype as suitable spawning partners."
After participating in this discussion, I'm glad that I've not mixed breeding colonies of different "phenotypes". All sides may be right in one sense. Crosses might only happen when two pairs of different groups are spawning at the same time. But at least I don't have to feel embarrassed about keeping them separate. I have an excuse thanks to this discussion.
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In my experience gained by keeping them for over 10 years, reading every book/magazine on them I could find, reading countless articles and postings in forums on the net on them, and personal discussions with other keepers, importers, and exporters this is what I know about Tropheus to Tropheus Hybridization.
Duboisi is 100% safe as long as its not with another Duboisi type.
Annectens & Poli are safe with the other types, but stay away from each other, or anything that has heavy bands.
Brichardi is a little safe with the other types, just make sure the color is as different as possible and definately away from other brichardi, annectens, or poli types.
Kasabae(rainbow types) & moorii (sp.red, sp.black, non-rainbow types) - dont mix these types with the others unless the color is as far different as possible. Still even then it is risky. Very High risk if you mix two of these types together.
Sp.red is the very worst at making hybrids, it is always best to keep reds by themselves.
I have kept Rutunga (sp.black), Duboisi (duboisi), and Katoto (kasabae) since 2002 in the same Aquarium and never made a hybrid fish.
I have kept Lupota and Ikola together for 2 years and no hybrids. BUT..I worry about it daily. I have seen numerous Ikola Hybrids with Cherry Spots, Chimba, Chilanga, and Kachese.
I do believe the best way to keep the fish is a single variant in a 6ft aquarium of about 30 fish. If your going to mix two Tropheus types, get Duboisi, and then the other variant can be any type you like. Otherwise, just keep one type.
I hope one day to meet Dr. Loiselle, if it was 10 years ago he made those statements, A LOT has changed in keeping Tropheus during that time. I just hope he is still not presenting that information.
Take care,
Geoff
Duboisi is 100% safe as long as its not with another Duboisi type.
Annectens & Poli are safe with the other types, but stay away from each other, or anything that has heavy bands.
Brichardi is a little safe with the other types, just make sure the color is as different as possible and definately away from other brichardi, annectens, or poli types.
Kasabae(rainbow types) & moorii (sp.red, sp.black, non-rainbow types) - dont mix these types with the others unless the color is as far different as possible. Still even then it is risky. Very High risk if you mix two of these types together.
Sp.red is the very worst at making hybrids, it is always best to keep reds by themselves.
I have kept Rutunga (sp.black), Duboisi (duboisi), and Katoto (kasabae) since 2002 in the same Aquarium and never made a hybrid fish.
I have kept Lupota and Ikola together for 2 years and no hybrids. BUT..I worry about it daily. I have seen numerous Ikola Hybrids with Cherry Spots, Chimba, Chilanga, and Kachese.
I do believe the best way to keep the fish is a single variant in a 6ft aquarium of about 30 fish. If your going to mix two Tropheus types, get Duboisi, and then the other variant can be any type you like. Otherwise, just keep one type.
I hope one day to meet Dr. Loiselle, if it was 10 years ago he made those statements, A LOT has changed in keeping Tropheus during that time. I just hope he is still not presenting that information.
Take care,
Geoff
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Great summary! I've seen his presentations at clubs and conventions several times, but not in the past few years. I doubt if he is still presenting that information in person, but what is published in book or magazine form will still be influencing those who don't consult newer resources too.geoff_tropheus said:
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Well I asked and I got the answer from the good Dr.
"They will crossbreed in captivity, if given no choice"
I then asked "and in captivity and given a choice but the dominant male being of the other type?"
No answer was forthcoming.
Those of you who know him will reolise this may never have happend before. :lol:
I have heard of dubs crossbreeding with cherry spots but the sourse was not reliable when chased up.
I still believe dubs will crossbreed with other Tropheus if the others are given no choice.
"They will crossbreed in captivity, if given no choice"
I then asked "and in captivity and given a choice but the dominant male being of the other type?"
No answer was forthcoming.
Those of you who know him will reolise this may never have happend before. :lol:
I have heard of dubs crossbreeding with cherry spots but the sourse was not reliable when chased up.
I still believe dubs will crossbreed with other Tropheus if the others are given no choice.
I know Dr. Loiselle and he is a very knowledgable guy. He may have been talking about wild populations and not aquarium populations. In the artificial confines of our aquaria, a lot of unnatural behavior occurs. When two populations are not naturally occurring together and are forced to live together, hybridization is always possible.
If you are in the hobby long enough you hear about all sorts of crazy crosses that occur.
Back in the day, we only knew of a few moorii types, duboisi types, a few brichardi types(now called sp. black and sp.red) and polli. Since 1994 a lot of changes and advances have occurred in the realm of Tropheus. And since 1994 was the date of publication, the actual writing of the book may have been several years in the making, so maybe 1990 was the actual date of writing.
So, if all that were known were a few dissimilar "types" the quote would hold true.
I remember the first time I read about Tropheus only the Red Saddle (rutunga) variant was known along with one type of duboisi. They were called "Dolphin Cichlids" because it was thought they rammed each other in the sides much like the mammal dolphins ram into sharks that threaten their family units, and killed each other purposefully.
We've come a long way from those days.
If you are in the hobby long enough you hear about all sorts of crazy crosses that occur.
Back in the day, we only knew of a few moorii types, duboisi types, a few brichardi types(now called sp. black and sp.red) and polli. Since 1994 a lot of changes and advances have occurred in the realm of Tropheus. And since 1994 was the date of publication, the actual writing of the book may have been several years in the making, so maybe 1990 was the actual date of writing.
So, if all that were known were a few dissimilar "types" the quote would hold true.
I remember the first time I read about Tropheus only the Red Saddle (rutunga) variant was known along with one type of duboisi. They were called "Dolphin Cichlids" because it was thought they rammed each other in the sides much like the mammal dolphins ram into sharks that threaten their family units, and killed each other purposefully.
We've come a long way from those days.
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