Cichlid Fish Forum banner
1 - 20 of 42 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My female black belt vieja is making her first spawning pit.

The only confirmed male vieja that I have is my male pink vieja fenestratus.

I want to hear everyone's thoughts on trying to cross-breed the two?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
505 Posts
Depends what you are going to do with them. If there is any chance they will make it out to the public who have no idea what they are, I say no.

If you are just going to grow the fry for your enjoyment or for food, go for it :wink:

The problem is if they turn out really cool looking and your friends ask for some. Maybe you can make sure none will make it to market but who is to say your friends will be so careful?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
WHY??

Just to see what you can create? There's enough hybridination going on. Hybrids shouldn't be created in the aquarium, if it happens in nature fine, survival of the fitest will prevail. Just my opinion, do what you want but, I don't think we need another killer bee or anything else humans can be the cause of. Be happy with what you have.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,559 Posts
And if you do make them and your friends get them and give them to other hobbyists then it could be a major problem they could...um... well they might...Wait In don't see the problem at all.

If others don't know what they are then they probably don't care if it's a hybrid. It's not like we will ever reintroduce our weak aquarium fish into the wild, assuming that we are at all responsible.

If you don't want hybrids don't buy them but unless we are being cruel to the fish in question by stunting/binding/cutting them in some way then what is the issue?

Just my opinion. Insert 74 pages of arguing here.... :lol:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
505 Posts
If others don't know what they are then they probably don't care if it's a hybrid.
Thats exactly the point. They don't know and/or don't care. If they then pair them back up with a Black Belt and sell those, we could easily have another Trimac, Red Devil, or Midas situation. If people aren't careful, it could get as hard to find a true Black Belt or fenestratus as it is to find any of them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,820 Posts
If you’re a simple guy keeping fish as a hobby with no interest in breeding and selling/trading fry… then I see no harm what so ever in having a mixed species pair in your tank that spawn and create food for other fish in the tank (or other tanks)…

I do agree that it is best to not let any of the hybrid offspring out of your possession.

As mentioned, there are several species of Cichlids that in the aquarium trade we have to almost assume all aquarium bred fish are hybrid unless they can be traced back to the wild (usually 2~3 generations at best). The Veijas are a closely related family and most hybridize easily. Each also has distinct characteristics. Allowing them to free range hybridize may allow them to wash out into one similar fish.

Many view hybridizing as “creating something newâ€
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,559 Posts
For those of us that want quality pure fish F1's are available from numerous breeders including the previusly mentioned Trimacs, Midas, and Red Devils.

For those of us who geek out on this stuff we know where to get them. For the average Joe who wants a fish tank with a sunken ship and a skeleton that swigs off a rum bottle when the bubbles blow it doesn't matter.

Ones not more right than the other it's just opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
What would I do with the fish? Honestly? I would probably keep a number of them...

The rest I would offer to anyone who wants them - making 10,000% sure they knew good and well what they were getting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,820 Posts
JWhipple said:
The rest I would offer to anyone who wants them - making 10,000% sure they knew good and well what they were getting.
But what happens when you give a biddy a 'pair' of them... and he gets fry... and he takes them to a store and says they are Black Belts...

So now you are creating the opportunity for inbred hybrids to be passed as a quality pure bred fish...

I would feel cheated if I bought that inbred hybrid when I was told it was pure bred... I would feel you created the opportunity for me to be cheated and I would blame you... the guy who knew the risk he was taking and took it anyway... at my expense...

Just an angle to consider it from...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I've taken hybrid fish to the pet stores around here in the past - used to have a few mixed africans that liked to interbreed, and thankfully since I gave them to the store, they sold them as "Misc mixed-breed african cichlids"...

Lets just say that they sold more than they lost to the typical pet store aquarium death syndrome!

Around here most folks tend to not mind a mixed breed if they can get them for cheap and they are interesting looking. These particular ones sold for $1.59 each as opposed to $3.99 each for the pure bred ones.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,820 Posts
Sounds like you knew the answer to your question before you ever asked it... :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Not really... I've been questioning whether or not to do it AGAIN.

Really though - keep the comments coming - this has given me a lot of food for thought.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
279 Posts
Many cichlids are becoming threatened in nature and it may very well be the case that us hobbyists will one day have the only living specimens available. With this in mind, why waste the tank space on creating mutts, when that tank could be used for preserving a species for future generations to enjoy and/or possibly be used to reintroduce to the wild?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
JWhipple said:
I've taken hybrid fish to the pet stores around here in the past - used to have a few mixed africans that liked to interbreed, and thankfully since I gave them to the store, they sold them as "Misc mixed-breed african cichlids"...

Lets just say that they sold more than they lost to the typical pet store aquarium death syndrome!
I don't care if you paid the LFS, gave them away, or sold them! Many of the people in these corp. pet chains haven't got a clue. Look at all the posts where someone bought a fish as whatever and than finally realize what they thought they were sold is the mutt you may have given and you don't see a problem with this?

Man, if you want to cross breed your fish, knock your socks off, grow them out, use them for feeders but, when you even say and seem to say it with pride that you give your mutts away and think it's OK because people don't mind buying a fish for $1.59 insted of the regular price for a pure bred. They can buy a beautiful Sword Tail, anything. I don't know, I just can't see how some think this is just fine.

Believe me, I'm not mad at anyone who thinks it's a good thing, there's nothing anyone can do. I just have my opinions and hopefully some will understand and say yea, I'll have free food.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,559 Posts
Voodoo Chilli said:
Many cichlids are becoming threatened in nature and it may very well be the case that us hobbyists will one day have the only living specimens available. With this in mind, why waste the tank space on creating mutts, when that tank could be used for preserving a species for future generations to enjoy and/or possibly be used to reintroduce to the wild?
Really we are going to introduce our inbred weak aquarium fish into the wild?
How many people breed brothers and sisters from the same spawn together?
If this ever does happen they are going to go to quality breeders like Rapps and Davis not every Joe with an aquarium. If being a high quality breeder is your thing go for it. Some people enjoy this hobby on a lot less serious level.

How many more posts until we get back into the dog arguments? :lol:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
279 Posts
chrispyweld said:
Voodoo Chilli said:
Many cichlids are becoming threatened in nature and it may very well be the case that us hobbyists will one day have the only living specimens available. With this in mind, why waste the tank space on creating mutts, when that tank could be used for preserving a species for future generations to enjoy and/or possibly be used to reintroduce to the wild?
Really we are going to introduce our inbred weak aquarium fish into the wild?
How many people breed brothers and sisters from the same spawn together?
If this ever does happen they are going to go to quality breeders like Rapps and Davis not every Joe with an aquarium. If being a high quality breeder is your thing go for it. Some people enjoy this hobby on a lot less serious level.

How many more posts until we get back into the dog arguments? :lol:
If "they" go to quality breeders and only quality breeders, won't this small population be akin to the inbreeding you mention? A relatively small amount of fish from only a few sources will mean a much smaller gene pool to begin with.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,820 Posts
chrispyweld said:
Some people enjoy this hobby on a lot less serious level.
...and if your just not seriously enough into breeding to do it right... then don't be be a distributor...

You can't say "I'm not into it so I'm not going to be responsible... but I am still going to make a few bucks with it on the side"... That is very bad business...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
586 Posts
I would think that if fish were going to be reintroduced into the wild, wouldn't the people doing the introductions (i'm assuming government) would somehow inspect the breeders for genetic purity? Honestly there are so many hybrid fish out there already that there really is no way our hobby is going to restock the wild populations on our level. I would be blown away if I got a call from the mexican goverment saying they desperetly need my jack dempsey for a breeding program. I'd also be willing to beleive that all of you against a little harmless HOME experiment have hybrids in your tank and don't even know it. Does anyone really have pure red devils, or trimacs, and good luck buying any convict that is not wild or f1 that doesn't have something else in it.
I say harmless home experiment on the idea that these hybrids aren't released on to an unsupecting public. Not meaning you have a buddy who really wants one of your hybrids, I don't see the horror in it. It wouldn't be any different for him to go and buy a flowerhorn, or red texas or something. But if you sold sy a convict/hrp knowingly as a convict to an lfs or something, thats a different story.
 
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Top