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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Dad is a midas that was caught in a pond on some island out out west... Mom is a barred midas.





Look at all those eggs! :lol: I just picked her up this past Saturday! I think three days is some kind of record :lol:


So, would they be hybrids?
 

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My opinion would be no, they will not be hybrids. It's like pairing a pink con and a regular con, they are the same species. Unless these 2 midas are not the same species? But I'm going to have to say I believe they are..

Lets see what others think I guess. :popcorn:
 

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The way I understand things... they are the same species so the cross would not result in hybrids...

I've toyed with crossing color morphs with Dempseys and Apistos... never Midas...
 

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:eek: For sure 3 days has got to be a record :eek: Nice looking fish very nice :thumb:
 

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im pretty sure they are all hybrids of RD and Midas anyway, so what is adding more midas to the mix right? LOL
 

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In the very least, it would be a hybrid of strains. For example a "pink" ( or 'golden') convict X Regular con is a kind of a hybrid; a hybrid of strains. Any cultivar of plant crossed with another cultivar is a type of hybrid and is called so. Pumpkin X squash, even if they are both the same species is called and considered a hybrid. Similarily, one breed of dog crossed with another breed of dog is a hybrid of strains. NOT a hybrid of species, but a hybrid of strains.

Now a midas cichlid is now classified as many species. Currently around 10 species or more; maybe eventully 40 or more species the way ichthyologists are classifying fish now days :lol: Is your barred midas a A. xiloaensis or maybe a A. sagittae? Or maybe one of the more recently described of the midas-cichlid complex? :lol: Who knows? Of course a lot of aquarium strain cichlids that use to be considered to be one species might be, based on the current classification, crosses of closely related species: convicts, JD, severum, festivum, blue acara, jewel cichlid etc.

Aquarium strain midas/RD are already, usually, a cross of both midas and RD. From my perspective the different midas cichlid type fishes are so similar that they are nothing more then different strains. Even midas and RD, from my perspective are probably nothing more then different strains. But ultimately the ichthyologists decide and like to split fishes up into seperate species, over small differences. So yes, even not considering its possible RD ancestory, this cross probably would be a cross of species; if it isn't yet, just give the ichthyologists some more time to classify more midas cichlid type fishes and it will be :lol:
 

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Is that female A. citrinellus? She has an odd pattern for a barred midas IMO.
Feral caught "Midas" from Hawaii (I'm assuming) x barred "midas"?
Yes, I would consider them hybrids.
Nice pair though! That's a hot little lady! 8)
 

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There is no way to tell what the mutt is that I caught and sent you. Assume hybrid.

Looking good. What size is it now? It's not as colorful as I would have guessed, as all the devils I pulled out of there were phenomenally colored.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
When he was put in the 185 Saturday nite he measured 10 and one quarter of an inch TL. And yes, it's true, Frameshift caught this litle guy from a pond in Hawaii and shipped em here when he was about 5" or so if I remember correctly...

I definately understand the whole midas complex issue with midas and RD, I don't consider the two different species either bernie, I'm right on the same page with you on that... What I'm getting at is... what are the fry going to look like when they get older. Do you think the same results will happen when breeding pink and grey cons? (Those results being a little of both grey and pink in the batch) Or will they be orange with stripes?

straitjacketstar, I'm not sure of lineage of this female but I'll try and find out. She brightened up considerably for this roll in the hay, bars becoming more pronounced and the grey becoming almost white... I'll keep you posted...
 

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It is really hard to tell how they will come out. Mostly because you don't know the exact genetic make up of either fish. Plus most of us probably assume that the color is controlled by one gene. So a fish is either XX, Xx, or xx. But being that to my knowledge, nobody has yet to do a complete genetic map of a Midas/RD, the different color could be controlled by more than one gene (XxYyZz for example). I guess you will just have to let them grow and see how things turn out and let us all know. You could be the next Gregor Mendel! :lol:
 

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What most rd/midas keepers experience in crossing xanthic with barred is mostly xanthic offspring suggesting that the xanthic gene would be dominant but I'm not by any means keep on the subject of genetics so you'll want input from someone who is and preferably who is also familiar with rd/midas.
The color change in the female is normal.
Mine went from this

to this

when spawning. She's f1 cit.

The coloration in rd/midas is something I'm finding really fascinating. There are a number of colors in the complex (barred, red, orange, yellow, white, black & R/O/Y/W, red & white, piebald). It's cool to see what might turn up in a pairing of differently colored fish. :popcorn:
 

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I would guess that this cross will have the same results as crossing Pink Con x Grey Con - that being that you don't get marbled con (unless ones of the parents has the marbles gene I suppose).

That being said straitjacketstar already pointed out the various colour varieties that currently exist with midas - the fact that they can be piebald makes me take pause and wonder what these guys will look like...

So it's settled then. Your just going to have to raise these guys and find out for us!

:lol:

PS: My opinion regarding these being hybrids is that the resulting fry will be no more or less hybridized than the parents - being that they are ferrel and aquarium strain I guess one would have to assume hybrid? (but I agree RD/Midas could be the same for all I know)... Maybe you should market them as 'Honduran Red Devils'
 

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It's really hard to say what the fry will turn out: like one or the other parent, a mix of the 2, or a certain ratio of each. I sort of doubt it would work like regular cons and 'pink' cons and simply be a dominant and recessive trait, as xanthic in RD and midas is a metamorphis that a fish can sometimes go through; they all start off barred and in most that change occurs at an early age in captivity, but doesn't always even occur in the wild, and they stay barred. So there are enviromental factors that affect the color transformation. Though if it is a dominant and recessive trait, one might expect all the offspring to be barred and remain barred, as the barred parent probably wouldn't carry the supposed recessive gene (?).
 

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just tuned in on this thread thefishguy. the female in question is a Amphilophus sp. "chancho". IMO the offspring between the two will be cross strain not a hybrid. unless your male is a rd/midas, then it would be considered a hybrid.

well just thought i would fill you in on her strain of midas. :fish:
 

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fishfreak317 said:
just tuned in on this thread thefishguy. the female in question is a Amphilophus sp. "chancho". IMO the offspring between the two will be cross strain not a hybrid. unless your male is a rd/midas, then it would be considered a hybrid.

well just thought i would fill you in on her strain of midas. :fish:
How do you know it's a chancho? If she is a sp. "chancho" than the offspring would definitely be a hybrid, as the father is definitely a red devil possible mix.
 

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I guess it all comes down to is this ...

is the person you're selling too a lumper or a spilter?

I know you are a lumper TFG ... and another lumper wouldn't consider them hybrids. A spiltter would. So just to be safe, I'd call them hybrids (but then I'm a splitter :p ) since you probably won't be asking each person if they believe the newly described species within the genus are valid or not during each sale.

And since most would probably be pissed if they bought them and later found out they were hybrids versus just not buying them if they knew before ... and those that would buy them as hybrids obviously have no issue with keeping hy's ... from a sales point I'd say it's the safer route regardless of personal opinions.
 

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So - according to some of the logic that I've read on this thread - crossing, for example, this:

Aulonocara stuartgranti (Hongi Is.) - http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=1396

with this:

Aulonocara stuartgranti (Ngara) - http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=685

wouldn't be a hybrid.

I think not.

Central American cichlids - of the same species - can vary just as much in morphology and behavior by geography as African ones. For example, two different "convicts" in two different streams in the same region of, for example, Honduras can exhibit different colors and different care of their fry. Same species. Different fish.
 

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The differance with the centrals versus the africans is that the centrals have been described as differant species ... ie convicts now consist of 4 differant species, midas consist of several species now too.

Not that all of these changes have been accepted yet though. Some might be and some probably won't. Ironically if they are excepted they will be hybrids, but if the changes aren't accepted it would simply be a color cross much like the african you described would be.
 
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