Cichlid Fish Forum banner
1 - 11 of 11 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello, I built a bar in my basement and installed a 210 gallon tank in the bar back. (picture attached) The tank has two overflows and I will be using a 100 gallon tank for a sump. I was originally going to do salt water; however, I decided to do a freshwater cichlid tank instead. I will have the sump divided into the following sections:

1.) Water delivery from overflows with filter socks installed on each pipe.
2.) Mechanical & chemical media stack. Sponge seated on top carbon bags.
3.) Biological media. I'm thinking K2 media.
4.) Return pump.

Does this setup seem reasonable? For the return pump, I'm thinking a mag 24 but that may be a bit overkill even for 300ish gallons.
What should I use for the substraight? I was thinking CaribSea Dry Aragonite Special Grade Reef Sand.
I was thinking of using the following light: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LFF07EC/?c ... _lig_dp_it
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
CreeksideBrewery said:
I will have the sump divided into the following sections:

1.) Water delivery from overflows with filter socks installed on each pipe.
I would imagine these are probably overkill.

I have heard that it's kind of a PITA to maintain them. My theory is that if you can make maintenance as easy as possible, it less likely to be put off or avoided.

In any event, hopefully you will have them set up in hanger holders - so that there is a way for water to bypass should they become full/clogged.

CreeksideBrewery said:
2.) Mechanical & chemical media stack. Sponge seated on top carbon bags.
I'd skip the carbon ... limited usefulness and has to be replaced often to really be effective. Doing regular partial water changes is good alternative.

I plan on using multiple layers of Poret Foam (sponge) in varying densities for mechanical in the sump for my 100 G - a stack consisting of two 1" thick 10 ppi (coarse) layers, followed by two 1" thick 20 ppi (finer layers)

CreeksideBrewery said:
3.) Biological media. I'm thinking K2 media.
It's supposed to be the bee's knees - lots of surface area and and largely self-cleaning.

All kinds of alternatives ... I'll probably use lava rock ... because it is cheap and I already have quite a bit of it.

CreeksideBrewery said:
4.) Return pump.

Does this setup seem reasonable? For the return pump, I'm thinking a mag 24 but that may be a bit overkill even for 300ish gallons.
A mag 24 will flow less than it's rated capacity after accounting for head and plumbing loss, so I would guess: not overkill.

Example: At 3' of head, that 2400 gph flow drops to 2000 gph.

CreeksideBrewery said:
What should I use for the substraight? I was thinking CaribSea Dry Aragonite Special Grade Reef Sand.
Largely your preference/your call.

Personally, I don't like fine sand because I find it hard to vacuum without sucking up the substrate. I think I would prefer more of a large grain sand/very small gravel - something in the 1/16" - 1/8" range.

I'm currently using large gravel (up to 1/2" 5/8" rounded or so) in one tank, medium Black Diamond blasting media (sand) in another (hate it), and some small angular gravel (around 1/8"+) in three other tanks.

The large rounded gravel lets too much debris fall into it's depths off the surface, the Black Diamond is too easy to suck up, and the small 1/8" gravel is just about perfect ... debris mostly stays on the top of the substrate and it is easy to vacuum out of the tank.

I have 1/8" stuff in the tank that I keep a pair of Julidochromis transcriptus in ... the male is only about 2 1/2" long and has absolutely no problem pushing it around to dig holes and build bowers.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
2,106 Posts
Nice tank and set up!

1. Ditch the socks. PITA to keep clean

2. second the use of Poret foam in several layers I have a coarse layer of poret as the first bit in my sumps. I only use carbon when trying to get rid of medicines, otherwise it is not needed.

3. No real preference here. I've used a variety of things from bio balls to matrix and ceramic rings from canisters. Don't need the "best" esp in a sump where you can add a large amount of it.

4. Mag 24 is fine for that tank. I have a mag 12 on a 125 and a mag 18 on my 180 both running without restrictions. As the other poster pointed out, you will lose quite a bit of that 2400 gals due to tubing restrictions and head. I'd start with a Mag 24 on a 210 for sure.

5 for substrate really up to you in terms of what you like, but in a deep tank like a 210, I'd be using pool filter sand as it reduces the need to vacuum and in a deep tank, the less time i'm spending rooting around the substrate the better.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
40,889 Posts
Plus one on #3. I even have plastic pot scrubbers in some trays of my filters.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
That is very close to what I have, except mine is a 100g display with a 55g for a sump. I love the moving bed filter, it is self cleaning and provides all the surface are you could ever need. It will take longer to cycle though. But once going it is maintenance free. I rotate my mechanical filters with cleaned ones every few days and change 30-40% of the water every other week when I clean the glass and rocks and that is about it.

This is the light I went with- AE-SHOP LED Aquarium Hood Lighting Fish Tank Light for Freshwater and Saltwater, Blue and White Light

I am no expert on lighting, but this color spectrum does not produce a lot of algae growth compared to "warmer" lighting colors i have had in the past. This is my set up before i added most of my fish. I had just changed the lighting in these pictures. Before I had two led flood lights that fell in about the 5500-6500k range if I remeber correctly. Anyway, one of them went out and you can see drastic difference in algae growth from one side to the other as only one light had been running.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=431625

I assume that is very close to a water source and a drain? I would consider a drip system if it is, or at least a pump that is tied to the drain for easier water changes.

Skip the mag pump they are VERY loud. Get a DC powered pump they don't make hardly any sound.

Sorry to ramble on your thread, but I get exited when i see a fellow "sump guy" on here :thumb:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for the replies everybody--much appreciated! For the filter, I think I will ditch the carbon and use multiple layers of foam/sponge. I already purchased the following so now I just need to purchase a smaller amount, Eshopps AEO19070 Square Foam Aquarium Filter

The tank is right next to my wet bar lines so I can easily tie into them for water changes, etc. For the bio media, I was still planning to use K2; however, I can't find any sizing information. 1.) how much do I need and 2.) how large of compartment should I make for it in my sump?

I am curious on the use of other materials instead of the K2--such as the plastic scrubber....Seems logical that I could just fill my large sump up with this and achieve adequate surface area.

I can't wait to get this thing up and running.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
CreeksideBrewery said:
Thanks for the replies everybody--much appreciated! For the filter, I think I will ditch the carbon and use multiple layers of foam/sponge. I already purchased the following so now I just need to purchase a smaller amount, Eshopps AEO19070 Square Foam Aquarium Filter

The tank is right next to my wet bar lines so I can easily tie into them for water changes, etc. For the bio media, I was still planning to use K2; however, I can't find any sizing information. 1.) how much do I need and 2.) how large of compartment should I make for it in my sump?
How much you will need will depend on the bioload you're trying to handle.

A 210G tank with four 3" fish isn't going to be the same as the same tank with twenty-five 6" fish ... :wink:

I found this on an aquaculture site, looks like it might referencing some original Kaldnes data, although there was no direct link to it:

"Looking at the writeup on KI media you posted a link to Scotty435: Details:

K1 - 10mm X 7mm or .39in X .28in - support about 35 pounds of fish per 2 cubic feet
K2 - 11mm X 7mm or .43in X .28in - Support about 42 pounds of fish per 2 cubic feet
K3 - 25mm X 12mm or .98in X .47in - Support about 33 pounds of fish per 2 cubic feet

Kaldnes Bio Filter Media suited to fluidized or moving bed tank systems. Kaldnes can support about 35 lbs of fish per 2 cubic feet of media, where fishes are fed 1.5% of their body weight per day. A safer measure is a maximum of 0.55 lb of food per 2 cubic feet used, in order to ensure the best possible water parameters are achieved.

As the Kaldnes media moves within the filter, it causes the old dead bacteria on the outside to be displaced. This makes space for younger, heavier feeding bacteria to rapidly colonize. Within the wheel is a protected surface, which enables colonies of bacteria to naturally follow their life-cycle of maturing, dying and then fueling the latter stages of the nitrification cycle.

Unlike foam, matting, or other forms of static filtration media, the Kaldnes media is designed to move freely within your filter. The constant chaotic movement of the air causes the media to self-clean and thus requires no maintenance. This allows the filter to reach optimum effectiveness without the disturbance of periodic cleaning, avoiding unnecessary loss of bacteria within the filter. ..."
http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25598&start=30

Long story short: It don't look like it takes all that much.

One of the problems I've found with tracking down the tech specs and an application/usage guide is that Kaldnes is a big, big company, multiple websites, involved in megabucks projects.

On compartment sizing, I think if you read through that thread you might find something along the lines of "the media should occupy 30% to 50% of the compartment volume" ...

Like I said, no idea if that data is actually from Kaldnes but it seems reasonable.

Perhaps someone else will have an actual link to real Kaldnes info.

CreeksideBrewery said:
I am curious on the use of other materials instead of the K2--such as the plastic scrubber....Seems logical that I could just fill my large sump up with this and achieve adequate surface area.
Yup ... you can use all sorts of stuff ... lava rock, gravel, etc ... just have to make sure it doesn't become flow-restricted with detritus.

Which is a good argument for adequate mechanical filtration on the front end ... :thumb:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,606 Posts
You might consider keeping some spaces in the sump for isolating a bad actor or some fry that would be eaten if left in the main tank. One thing about bars and fish tanks. Things can happen. It does not hurt to have things latched down so unauthorized people have less access. Not that it would happen, just that it's possible. I have heard friends complain after hosting a party and finding cigarette butts in a fish tank or hearing that someone gave their fish tank a few shots so the fishies could enjoy the party too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
wryan said:
CreeksideBrewery said:
Thanks for the replies everybody--much appreciated! For the filter, I think I will ditch the carbon and use multiple layers of foam/sponge. I already purchased the following so now I just need to purchase a smaller amount, Eshopps AEO19070 Square Foam Aquarium Filter

The tank is right next to my wet bar lines so I can easily tie into them for water changes, etc. For the bio media, I was still planning to use K2; however, I can't find any sizing information. 1.) how much do I need and 2.) how large of compartment should I make for it in my sump?
How much you will need will depend on the bioload you're trying to handle.

A 210G tank with four 3" fish isn't going to be the same as the same tank with twenty-five 6" fish ... :wink:

I found this on an aquaculture site, looks like it might referencing some original Kaldnes data, although there was no direct link to it:

"Looking at the writeup on KI media you posted a link to Scotty435: Details:

K1 - 10mm X 7mm or .39in X .28in - support about 35 pounds of fish per 2 cubic feet
K2 - 11mm X 7mm or .43in X .28in - Support about 42 pounds of fish per 2 cubic feet
K3 - 25mm X 12mm or .98in X .47in - Support about 33 pounds of fish per 2 cubic feet

Kaldnes Bio Filter Media suited to fluidized or moving bed tank systems. Kaldnes can support about 35 lbs of fish per 2 cubic feet of media, where fishes are fed 1.5% of their body weight per day. A safer measure is a maximum of 0.55 lb of food per 2 cubic feet used, in order to ensure the best possible water parameters are achieved.

As the Kaldnes media moves within the filter, it causes the old dead bacteria on the outside to be displaced. This makes space for younger, heavier feeding bacteria to rapidly colonize. Within the wheel is a protected surface, which enables colonies of bacteria to naturally follow their life-cycle of maturing, dying and then fueling the latter stages of the nitrification cycle.

Unlike foam, matting, or other forms of static filtration media, the Kaldnes media is designed to move freely within your filter. The constant chaotic movement of the air causes the media to self-clean and thus requires no maintenance. This allows the filter to reach optimum effectiveness without the disturbance of periodic cleaning, avoiding unnecessary loss of bacteria within the filter. ..."
http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25598&start=30

Long story short: It don't look like it takes all that much.

One of the problems I've found with tracking down the tech specs and an application/usage guide is that Kaldnes is a big, big company, multiple websites, involved in megabucks projects.

On compartment sizing, I think if you read through that thread you might find something along the lines of "the media should occupy 30% to 50% of the compartment volume" ...

Like I said, no idea if that data is actually from Kaldnes but it seems reasonable.

Perhaps someone else will have an actual link to real Kaldnes info.

CreeksideBrewery said:
I am curious on the use of other materials instead of the K2--such as the plastic scrubber....Seems logical that I could just fill my large sump up with this and achieve adequate surface area.
Yup ... you can use all sorts of stuff ... lava rock, gravel, etc ... just have to make sure it doesn't become flow-restricted with detritus.

Which is a good argument for adequate mechanical filtration on the front end ... :thumb:
That is all mostly good stuff, I have found very similar data in my research when I was deciding how much I needed.

Also to consider, 30 lbs. is A LOT of fish :fish: I have 20 mbuna in my tank right now and I would be surprised if all of them together equaled more than a couple of pounds. I think you would be well past overstocked if you passed 30 pounds of fish in a 210. I am pretty sure 2 cubic feet would do it. I have read about a 5500 gallon koi pond using 2-3 cubic feet with 60 lbs of fish in it.

"I am curious on the use of other materials instead of the K2--such as the plastic scrubber....Seems logical that I could just fill my large sump up with this and achieve adequate surface area." This is where it is important to do a lot of research and know what you are getting in to.
The short answer is yes, but I wouldn't. There are many similar medias and substitutes out there but they are not guaranteed to work. K1 (or k2 and k3) is engineered to do exactly what it does, and behaves in a very unique way in the water that only it and some of the very similar knockoffs will. Simply put, it moves around better and has a lot of surface area. Pot scrubbers and straws just don't behave the same way.

wryan wrote something that needs clarification: "Yup ... you can use all sorts of stuff ... lava rock, gravel, etc ... just have to make sure it doesn't become flow-restricted with detritus." You can use all sorts of stuff, but not in a moving bed. I know that is obvious, but in that context it could be misleading as the question asked was about moving beds.

King of DIY on youtube has some of the best info available for these types of filters, and he addresses this there and I have seen him address it on forums similar to this one (diyfiskeepers.com and discussforums.com maybe?) - although I have not ever seen him on here before.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
210 Posts
Carbon is pretty good for when you first start a tank, just expensive to keep it going ad nauseum. So you may as well use up what comes with the filter unless you are saving it to get rid of meds or something.

k2 is pretty noisy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
Cyphro said:
Carbon is pretty good for when you first start a tank, just expensive to keep it going ad nauseum. So you may as well use up what comes with the filter unless you are saving it to get rid of meds or something.

k2 is pretty noisy.
That may be a point to consider ... :thumb:
 
1 - 11 of 11 Posts
Top