[mollysgood]

Genetically they are the same. If two wild caught parents had their young in the lake they would all be considered wild, so what's the difference if they are born in a tank (genetically they are the same as wild). If you get F-1's from two different sources then basically your breeding with wild caught stock most likely.

I'm only bring this up because of the price difference between f-1 and wild caught. Although in most cases wild caught will be full size. For myself I'm sticking with buying F-1, saving some money, & still I'm getting the same quality that comes from the lake.

 

[Darkside]

They aren't genetically the same on a population level. In the lake they have to pass through natural selection, and those fish that survive get their "pick" of mates from a wider population. In the tank there is no selection and the choice of mates is limited, therefore fish that wouldn't survive or be successful in the wild grow to adult size.

WC is a concern for those people who provide you with the F1 fish. Better to have WC breeders and produce F1 fish so that you can buy these with the tag of F1. There is a general consensus that F2 is the last "useful" label that applies to the fish trade. Generally speaking F1 fish will look the similar to WC fish (we can't fully replicate the natural environment) and will still produce viable offspring.

There's nothing wrong with F1 fish, but they are by no means "the same" as wild caught fish.

 

[mollysgood]

That does make sense as far as wild caught having passed the survival test but I'm simply referring to the actual traits that are passed on from parents to the young. I've seen plenty of wild caught fish that really don't look very attractive compared to some of the pictures you see from the actual lake. I think if you take the best looking wild caught fish & breed them you end up with top quality F1's. Not in all cases but selective breeding does work & I'm not talking about inbreeding.

 

[Rick_Lindsey]

It all depends on the aquarist in question. When I (someday) set up a tank with gobies, I'll probably pay just as much for F1 as I could for wild (the only source I found for F1 had similar prices to wild fish elsewhere) because I want a tank-bred fish.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist, who's wife would cry if she thought his fish got scooped out of the lake and sentenced to life in prison in their living room)

 

[Longstocking]

I believe genetically they are the same.

Behavior wise.... there is a huge difference in my experience.

 

[mollysgood]

What kind of behavior differences have you encountered? That sounds interesting.

 

[fiupntballr]

The Wild Caught fish should represent more or less the genetic diversity found in the wild.
Selection does occur in captivity as most mutations lead to delitirious effects and prevent from the fry even developing. I have seen sexual selection in captive bred environments so even then that is still occurring. I think the biggest difference between wild bred and aquarium bred fish is around the parental care of the fry. Breeders stripping females early on can lead to less successful parents when left on their own but this is usually not an issue since those fish are also being stripped.

By the way there is nothing wrong with proper use of selective breeding and in many cases if done correctly can bring out a hardier outcome. So if your interested in good quality fish a good fish breeder could provide hardier fish.

 

[lloyd]

There is a general consensus that F2 is the last "useful" label that applies to the fish trade.

now there's a statement that should embarrass the ENTIRE fish keeping hobby!

 

[triscuit]

Good questions!
I would say from my own experience that WC vs. TR is a matter of availability first and preference second. This can go both ways, in that you can be looking for TR and have only WC available (often with gobies). And, you could be looking for WC for breeding an unusual species but can only come across other hobbyists who have fry for sale because the importers aren't providing WC.

I typically look for TR fish, even though I have WC cyps, gobies, and multies. The reason I look for TR is that I assume they are better adjusted to life in a glass box and that they are relatively free of exotic pests that WC sometimes carry. There is quite a bit of difference between my WC and their fry with behavior. TR are less skittish, and sometimes more colorful.

I also appreciate the sustainability of this hobby, particularly when compared to the salt water industry a few years ago. They are getting better... but still too few species can be bred in captivity, and reef raids and subsequent high mortality are hard to prevent.

 

[Darkside]

There is a general consensus that F2 is the last "useful" label that applies to the fish trade.

now there's a statement that should embarrass the ENTIRE fish keeping hobby!

I don't see why that should embarrass the entire hobby. Do you want to spend the time and effort to pedigree your fish through several generations when there may technically be more than 1000 offspring? Hence F2 being the last "useful" label, from this point on the fish are all assumed to be tank raised or farm bred.

 

[lloyd]

Do you want to spend the time and effort to pedigree your fish through several generations?

why yes...don't you? :?

 

[Darkside]

Do you want to spend the time and effort to pedigree your fish through several generations?

why yes...don't you? :?

I sure do, its easy to label my fish. The parents are all WC or F1 and I sell the juvies. From there on if someone wants to do a pedigree for the next 10 generations that they produce all the power to them but even cichlids at that point will begin to suffer from inbreeding depression. Generally F3 -∞ will produce similar offspring so there isn't much point in labeling them unless you're interested in line breeding or you're just bored. If you'd like to do that good for you!

 

[LED]

IME and IMO it depends on the fish. One fish type that I do recommend buying Wild are Comps and Calvus because it takes FOREVER to grow a pair out to breeding size. Otherwise with a majority of other fish I like going F1 or F2 and growing them out myself.

 

[lloyd]

darkside: i believe your logic exposes the troubling demand this hobby has for wild caught sources. a breeder is not really being responsible, until he has construed a method of self sufficiency for his livestock. and so long as we continue to dump our fish into TR buckets, consumers will never value them.
species cypho. 'burundi' is a great example, of how we managed to bugger up a perfectly good variant. what was once a grand fish, just a few years ago, is already assumed a mutt in the hobby. if your only foreseeable option for breeder stock, is to pull from a lake, then you are sadly missing my point. IMHO.

 

[Longstocking]

What kind of behavior differences have you encountered? That sounds interesting.

The biggest factor I have found is aggression. Wild caught fish are quite a bit more aggressive towards tank mates. That's the largest difference on a whole. To most people this is a good thing :thumb: This is why I prefer F1. I try and get two lines going in my tanks. But, sometimes out of lack of availability, I end up with wild and f1. Or F2/F1 from different lines.... just examples.

Other differences are species specific. Wild calvus display more predatory behavior for example.

 

[lloyd]

IME and IMO it depends on the fish. One fish type that I do recommend buying Wild are Comps and Calvus because it takes FOREVER to grow a pair out to breeding size. Otherwise with a majority of other fish I like going F1 or F2 and growing them out myself.

and where will your grandchildren source comps or calvus?

 

[mollysgood]

I'm glad I brought this question up. It's great to here everyones experiences with wild caught behavior vs. tank raised behavior. That's one aspect I overlooked, makes sense that wild caught would be more aggressive to other tank mates & show better parental care. I'd imagine that I'd be more aggressive also if I went from an open lake to a wee little tank in comparison. I'm surprised more wild caught fish aren't suicidal. :lol:

 

[Darkside]

darkside: i believe your logic exposes the troubling demand this hobby has for wild caught sources. a breeder is not really being responsible, until he has construed a method of self sufficiency for his livestock. and so long as we continue to dump our fish into TR buckets, consumers will never value them.
species cypho. 'burundi' is a great example, of how we managed to bugger up a perfectly good variant. what was once a grand fish, just a few years ago, is already assumed a mutt in the hobby. if your only foreseeable option for breeder stock, is to pull from a lake, then you are sadly missing my point. IMHO.

There isn't anything wrong with my logic. There is no reason to genetically track fish beyond F2 as the traits will be fairly homogeneous. There are very few people who have the means (and almost none who have the inspiration) to line breed successive generations beyond the F2. The demand from the general public to secure quality fish isn't there, so large scale breeding operations won't pedigree their fish. Unfortunately your arguments about fish sources misses my point entirely unless you can demonstrate to me a reason (genetically) to track homogeneous fish through successive generations.
I'll address your concerns anyway, as for pulling from the Lake (we'll use your Front example), it is expensive, but its not like collecting for the aquarium hobby has that much of an impact on the fish population. In fact the amount of fish pulled from the lake with an aquarium as a destination is minuscule compared to the amount of fish harvested for food. There are beaches in Tanganyika right now that have more that $100,000 worth of cichlids spread out on the beach drying for local consumption. I realize this isn't your point but we should always evaluate the environmental impact of fish collection on a case by case basis, as the cichlids of lake Tanganyika are a far different case than say the "galaxy rasbora".
As for tank raised fish, there is nothing wrong with fish that don't have a generation label on them. How do you plan on making consumers value fish that have these generation labels and pedigrees? There simply isn't a demand for this from the average hobbyist so there is no reason to start a specialized supply. Not only that, but the general public do not have the tools to equip themselves with an understanding of the 'genetic' labeling of fish. On average how are people going to respond to a $20 fish that's labeled "F3 back-crossed to F1, Burundi"? People don't even understand some of the less technical language used in genetics (For an example: Number6's frustration at misunderstood terminology can be seen here http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... 6&start=15 ). If there is confusion about the definition of a hybrid, then there is no point in labeling fish beyond what is now common (F2). Your intentions are noble, but at this point in time I can't see any reason to construct pedigrees beyond personal interest and experiments with line breeding.

 

[mollysgood]

I have another question that is related to this topic of discussion. Does anyone know what percent of Wild caught fish are actually wild caught vs being bread and raised using the lake water. I've only herd that some fish that are sold as wild caught are raised using the lake water but are not subjected to the natural selection of growing up in the lake. Is there any truth to this practice?

 

[Longstocking]

That question would best be answered by someone that has been to the lake.... Some day I'll get there !! :?

BUT... when I look at lists the exporters usually say they are bred lake side. Keep in mind.. most of the exporters don't have the supplies to breed a large amount of fish lake side. I have heard of a few fish that this is the case though... due to low numbers in the lake but a high demand. Or the fish is located far from their location so it is more economical to breed the fish lake side than to use the gas ( one of their biggest expenses ) to get their by boat.

Make sense ?? Of course this is what I have heard.... so no actual fact :fish: