The Cyps could be an issue, but then again they are still small at 5". Keep in mind, this is a 10" fish. The colour should come soon, but that it hasn't yet would be my biggest concern. The males ventrals haven't even fully grown yet.

 

What blows my mind is that they were advertised as "breeding"! surely a giant fish farm like Bluechip was not providing the accommodations they now have?

Do you think he is in fact male? Can you visually sex the others? I would first like to know if I got what I paid for and, second, I would like them to tell me what I must do to get them digging and breeding!

Here are more pics, maybe they'll help you guys help me? TIA Anyway

The big alleged male. "He" has recently started chasing the others if they sift to close to him. He doesn't pursue but for the longest time he was getting bullied a bit by the others (It's pretty wussy bullying if you compare to pretty much any other cichlid but they were just taking little runs at him here and there), he seems to have become the boss as gentle of one as he may be.

If he looked like he does in this pic, taken shortly after I got him when I still had the lace rock in there, I'd only complain a little but it's a camera trick, he is never that green to the naked eye although his fins have been going dark the last couple of months when he eats. The one on the left is what I thought was female but am more and more thinking she is a he. She was the most aggressive of the others but now the big one (middle) is most aggressive, though still not very, and then "She" (Left) is, while the other two, the one on the right and the other "gold" colored one are quite docile and seem to be peaceful. All of them seem to be relaxed, they eat well they swim all over and seem to be quite comfortable so I don't know what gives.

A female? I think so... I believe this is the calm silver little one.

this is for sure the docile one. The gold one is too but this is the little silver one with no marbling or dark fins at all.

However they all look like total **** compared to what I was paying all that money for, LIKE this!

I know it's probably hard to tell but this fish doesn't look any bigger than my so called male/s. So what gives? Is it the size of the mature colony or will they color up regardless of how many breeding females are present? Should I dump the other eight sub-adult juvis from the growout in there and see what happens? FYI, according to the yellow on the Furcifer's fins in the grow out tank there are 5 males and 3 females (Which sucks because I don't want any of the males, however, if the foai don't get their act together I may sell them and just ride with the Furcifers!)

OYYY! :-?

 

#1 the cyps are aggressive, they're dwarves but they are claiming their territories aggressively toward the Foai. In the photo of the whole setup you can see the left 1/3rd of the tank which is open. I set this up to be one of to bower areas but one of the blue tailed cyps won't allow any other fish in that entire area most of the time. You can see poop on the sand on the left and none on the right because the cyp male doesn't allow the foai to sift through that area for longer than 3 seconds or so.

I'd get the cyps out. The foai need to be dominant IME and not bullied by anything else. My male didn't color up until he started building pits. If yours aren't building pits, then it may be due to the cyps. Mine were building pits at under 5".

#2 Perhaps I have 3 males and 1 female? If that is the case will they not color up or dig because there aren't enough mature females?

My m/f were very different in size. You could very well have 3m/1f. In the pic where the male is showing some green and there are two others same size, with one smaller seems to indicate that to me. But, mine still dug pits and colored up with no females present. They don't wait in the wild until a female wanders by to start thinking about pit building and showing off. I wouldn't go by aggression level alone. My sub males could be very docile. If the male's fins are coloring up, that's a good indicator.

A tank with all males video

Everything but the smallest seen at the end of the video were males. I ended up with 8m/3f. I had one that was in between the males and females in size that also turned out to be male.

So, I think you have males there that just need to be allowed to dominate the tank and be given more time.

 

Bluechip would definately have had them on their own....

 

I agree with Tim, remove the cyps. I had my Furcifers for almost two years, it wasn't until I replaced the cyps with cyp. micro, that they coloured up and started digging. I would actually reccomend cyp. Pavo. I think the one with the bad eye is a female because the anal fin is rounded and not elongated as it would be in the males. I also tend to think that there may be three males. from that photo, I can definately see green scales on three of the fish. Be carefull mixing these guys up, once you mix in the female furcifers there is no way of telling them apart, making them unselleable in the future. Try to post more pics of the anal fins.

 

Bluechip would definately have had them on their own....

What do you mean? Like separated by sex for sure? or in breeding groups on their own?

Anybody have an opinion on why one of them is gold?

 

I agree with Tim, remove the cyps. I had my Furcifers for almost two years, it wasn't until I replaced the cyps with cyp. micro, that they coloured up and started digging. I would actually reccomend cyp. Pavo. I think the one with the bad eye is a female because the anal fin is rounded and not elongated as it would be in the males. I also tend to think that there may be three males. from that photo, I can definately see green scales on three of the fish. Be carefull mixing these guys up, once you mix in the female furcifers there is no way of telling them apart, making them unselleable in the future. Try to post more pics of the anal fins.

I'm not looking to sell any of them unless I sell the whole group out of frustration LOL. But it'll be some time before I can't tell them apart as the adult foai are easily 3 times bigger than the juvi fry

 

Welcome to the world of Cyathopharynx.You have to have 10 times the patience than any other average cichlid.My wild adult furcifer males only dig pits and fire up impressive color when a female is within a week of wanting to breed.I think having more females at breeding size will encourage the males to color up. In the wild there is always a female ready to breed close by to give the males a reason to use energy.

I agree with all in getting rid of the C.leptosoma and getting a much more laid back fish such as Paracyprichromis or C.micro.My group would not color up at all when I had a group of Kitumba cyps in the tank.

Also when it comes to breeding Cyathos,they do not breed regularly like a clock.My group bred like crazy for a couple months and now there has been no breeding activity for about 4-5 months.

This is why I think not many aquarist breed Cyathos often b/c they get rid of their group too early or when the breeding stops for a long period.

 

I wouldn't really mind if he was silver a lot of the time as long as he had some impressive fins. I have seen a big Foai colored down before but his lyre tail and ventrals made up for it kind of.

I'll pull the cyps and see what happens :?

How long after, or how soon after could they begin to show color etc.?

I hear mixed info between some of these replies versus other posts of mine... Some say that many females have green scales while this one says they must be female because they reflect green. Not sure what to think there but I will say that you can't see any reflective scales on the 3 smaller ones when you're not shooting a camera at them.

I do suspect that one of the small silver ones is male because it's fins also go a bit dark during feeding like the big one's fins do.

So that makes 2m/2fm if the golden one is female. Maybe I'll write bluechip and ask how they determined wether they were female or not.

 

I wouldn't really mind if he was silver a lot of the time as long as he had some impressive fins. I have seen a big Foai colored down before but his lyre tail and ventrals made up for it kind of.

I'll pull the cyps and see what happens :?

How long after, or how soon after could they begin to show color etc.?

I hear mixed info between some of these replies versus other posts of mine... Some say that many females have green scales while this one says they must be female because they reflect green. Not sure what to think there but I will say that you can't see any reflective scales on the 3 smaller ones when you're not shooting a camera at them.

I do suspect that one of the small silver ones is male because it's fins also go a bit dark during feeding like the big one's fins do.

So that makes 2m/2fm if the golden one is female. Maybe I'll write bluechip and ask how they determined wether they were female or not.

I'm sure Chip would have vented them to sex them. I just would also add that you really have to be patient with these guys. I have bred them for years along with Cyath. furcifers and you will find that they will colour when they want to, and not before. But when they do, it is spectacular, and with my experience, it just keeps going! Not to dispute others with regard to the presence of the cyps, but I have had luck with keeping them together while they breed. I kept, a colony of cyp. kekeses with the foai, and microlepidotus kirizas with the furcifers. When the male builds his nest, nobody gets near it...(not even me, when I wanted to move a rock!)
But you'll find what works best for you and just have fun trying. If it was easy, it wouldn't be any fun!

 

Thanks mark, you're post had a nice blend of encouragement plus some realistic info :lol: All I needed to keep plugging along. I think I will still remove the cyps and see what gives, I don't like cyps, because I see them as an auxiliary fish and not a center piece fish, pushing non-conspecific tankmates around.

I may seriously add a dozen Velvet Red Swordtails to the mix if I can find them (I will qt them for a long time since they are so prone to disease)

 

Hey BioG,

I have not had these in a long time but have bred them twice in a 240. In my experience kitumba cyp's did not bother them but they were in 8ft of water.

I think you are close to the top of the hill where color is concerned. these fish as Fogulhund stated get to 10" and at 5" are still quite young. The male you pictured is right on the cusp in my opinion and you should see him struting his stuff soon. They are magnificent once they get there, but many people move on before they have a chance to see it. The original trio I had went to 6" before they started but the end result was truely worth waiting for. the male would dig a pit in the 240 from front to back (24" round) and dart across the tank like a tuna

The only true way to sex them is venting, however if their ventral fins extend into the start/middle of their anal fin they are usually male. don't judge their sex by the shimmer in their flanks because the females can show this quality just not as vibrant.

Patience, patience
Steve

 

Thanks! I noticed in the pics I posted above that the pretty male in the very last photo (Not Mine!) has a more pointed nose than do any of mine. Is this a sex indicator or just a mturity thing.

Also, I hear what everyone's saying about patience and size but I have furcifer growing out in an 80 gallon across the fish room which are barely 3.5 inches and they are beginning to color up! Not brillliant but enough to see yellow in their fins and some very aggressive behavior etc. What gives there?

Are Foai harder to keep comfortable than Furcifer? They can't be right? They are physiologically the same fish but were labeled differently because they exist, in some cases, breeding side by side without hybridizing right?

 

I have only kept furcifer's but I agree with your conclusion.

The ones in the 80 could just be more comfortable for whatever reason, or just the characteristics of that strain/species. They can get aggressive, in fact some of the Ophthalmotilapia ventralis family are downright nasty. Maybe combining them into the big tank or swapping out the bigger ones will help?

I think it is just the angle the camera is at and the fish is raising its head towards the lense. I could be wrong because some Nasuta's sure have a snoze :lol:

Steve

 

I wonder if the tank being so open and bare has anything to do with their comfort level. Perhaps a couple of big caves for them to hide in, with some large flat slate... say 14-18" might increase their comfort level. Just make sure there is no sharp edges on such rocks.

 

Interesting... That is perhaps the only difference between the big tank and the 4' one with the furcifer in it, more rocks. The furcifer grow out tank is mainly dedicated to some calvus and so there are many more places for them to seek refuge.

I also removed the cyps (No easy task in a 6' foot tank, I think I'll use a hook next time !!) so we'll see if I can get these guys going.

I feed mainly NLS cichlid formula but I have been supplementing frozen brine about 4 times weekly. I feed 3 times daily enough for them to eat in about 1 minute. I'm hoping this is a proper regiment to condition them or perhaps grow them to maturity?

My water parameters are all top notch so, other than the rocks I'm not sure what else I can do? I have added more plants (Mostly very big, non-resting aponogetons and some shorter vals) which are flourishing and filling things out. They seem to appreciate hiding in them from time to time.

I also picked up some Red velvet sword tails which are in qt where I will collect their young and form a school for Foai dithers if I can stomach the fact that they are not tanganyikans :lol:

 

My advice it get rid of that black sand, it is not doing your foai justice. I've always had white aragonite and my foai/furcifer color up from 2.5 inches and up. As well keep the middle open stack the rocks to the sides like your doing, for some reason my foai always make bowers on the sides by the glass. I'm guessing they feel they can defend the territory easier this way just a natural aquarium instinct.

 

Really? I had heard that dark sand would bring out their colors more! :-? It stands to reason because it does so with virtually every other cichlid I can think of... :roll:

 

I would go with light sand also. I've never seen them with black sand and I don't think it has any effect on how much the fish colors up. It's all about showing for the females.

There are certain species that like to build their bowers up against or on top of rocks. I don't think it's common to find them out in the middle of a strictly sandy area. I found a couple of small rock piles were often used by them. They'd build up against them.

My furcifer colored up and built bowers at a smaller size than what you have.

 

The cyps have been gone for a few days and there's no real difference. I will try scaping a bit (Adding a big flat rock for him to build something on in the open area?)

The black sand isn't hurting anything is it? DOes the color of the sand freak them out or something causing them not to build or color?

 

It took 2 months after removing my Jumbo Kitumba cyps before my wild furcifer Kigoma to color up and start breeding after having them a full year and they were 6 inch + fish.Mine seem to be seasonal breeders as they bred like crazy from Winter to early Spring and stopped. Now the male is coloring up and making a bower which is sure sign that a female is close to being ready.

As to fin extensions,they keep growing longer with age, once the male is 8 inch + that is when they are quite impressive.

 

The black sand isn't hurting anything is it? DOes the color of the sand freak them out or something causing them not to build or color?

No, I just think they'll show better. Personal prefereence.

I'd add the rock and give them more time.

I went back and found an old video of my males digging pits while they were still smaller than yours. Both had built them against rocks.

 

The black sand isn't hurting anything is it? DOes the color of the sand freak them out or something causing them not to build or color?

No, I just think they'll show better. Personal prefereence.

I'd add the rock and give them more time.

I went back and found an old video of my males digging pits while they were still smaller than yours. Both had built them against rocks.

I did the same. It seemed, from what I saw on youtube that the rock was basically creating a corner effect in at least 2 corners... Oy :roll: It'd be quicker to paint him blue! I think my wife spent less time designing our nursery for our firstborn than I have for this Cyathopharynx project! :lol:

 

So could you keep adult breeding furcifer or foai in a 4x2x2?

just wondereing for a planned setup, if not i might go some E sp Kilesa. or some melanogenys. furcifers look really nice in the photos *** seen, but probably not the best choice for me...very expensive over here in Australia and hard to find....

 

Holy Cow!!

I swapped the sand out for some natural sand and Wellah! all of the sudden one of the small sub-adults (3"+) colored right up. I mean while the tank was still cloudy from the sand transfer!

The same little guy is slightly protecting an area as I right this and looks as though he's waiting for plans on how to build a bower.

Not only did the little guy color up but for some reason, they all have become blatantly easy to sex in that all the females went as silver as salmon and the males went equally as silver but with black fins!

Anyway it looks like I've got 3 males and 8 females. I doubt the little guy will be able to hold his ground long being as the next biggest male is 2" bigger than he.

I can't believe the sand made any difference. I'll be eating humble pie all week if anyone wants some! :thumb: