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I have a 55g with a hot 250 and a eheim 2236, I want to take out the bubbles because they are too loud for me, my hot only runs during the day for water polishing, I have my exhaust on my 2236 pointed toward the surface enough that I can tell there is surface movement but not enough that the jet comes out of the water, also on my hot is a surface skimmer, will this provide enough aeration for the tank so that I can take out the bubbles?
 

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Yes, you don't need the bubbles. In the event that you wanted more circulation/aeration, a small water pump could be used instead of the bubbler.
 

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I agree that you don't need the bubbles, but if you want to further improve aeration, you could use an Eheim diffusor as outlet for your 2236. It would give you aeration second to none, and although not entirely silent, would be far more quiet than the bubbles, or the HOT when it's running.
 

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fmueller said:
I agree that you don't need the bubbles, but if you want to further improve aeration, you could use an Eheim diffusor as outlet for your 2236. It would give you aeration second to none, and although not entirely silent, would be far more quiet than the bubbles, or the HOT when it's running.
*** seen people mention that before. How does it work....you hook it up to the output side of the filter but how do you mount the actual diffuser. I tried doing a google search and the pics I found, the diffuser is pointed down in the tank, not up towards the surface? Is that correct?





 

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If you have surface agitation there is no need for air stones or other aeration devices. ALl they do is provide surface agitation for gas exchange. You can do this by having one of your filter outputs have some surface agitation.
 

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60gallon said:
I've seen people mention that before. How does it work....you hook it up to the output side of the filter but how do you mount the actual diffuser. I tried doing a google search and the pics I found, the diffuser is pointed down in the tank, not up towards the surface? Is that correct?
For details see here.

under_control said:
If you have surface agitation there is no need for air stones or other aeration devices. All they do is provide surface agitation for gas exchange. You can do this by having one of your filter outputs have some surface agitation.
That is certainly true. Gas exchange takes place at any surface between water and air. The more surface, the more gas exchange. You don't even need to have surface agitation for that to happen, but you can increase gas exchange by agitating the surface, simply because an agitated surface is larger than a completely flat one.

In my experience sufficient gas exchange is critically important for the success of a fish tank. In my tanks I strive to have lots of oxygen dissolved in the water - preferably have it at saturation levels at all times. The reason for this is not only to supply fish with sufficient oxygen to breathe, you want to get oxygen to the beneficial bacteria responsible for the nitrogen cycle. A lot of ado is made about bio filtration materials with huge surface areas for those bacteria to settle on. In my opinion that's not anywhere near as important as getting oxygen in the water. If there is oxygen and fish poop, the bacteria will thrive, and they will always find a surface somewhere to settle on.

Last but not least, I find that fish who have been injured through bite wounds or crashing into rocks heal quicker in tanks with oxygen at saturation levels. I have no hard scientific data to back this up, and it's mere speculation if this is due to the overall better water quality in those tanks, or if the oxygen plays an additional role in promoting the fish's immune system. Be that as it may, I have observed it time and time again that injured fish I thought lost made a quick turnaround in tanks with above average aeration.

Now that I have established why I think aeration is important, let me explain why I am so fond of the Eheim diffusor. Bubble wands create extra surface area between air and water, on which gas exchange can take place. The surface of every individual bubble counts, and if you ad up the surface of all bubbles, you can easily see how the combined surface of all of them will be larger than the most wildly agitated upper surface of your tank. However, bubble wands are noisy, and I really don't like the look of them. An Eheim diffusor creates much smaller bubbles, and it is a well known fact that smaller particles means much larger overall surface. That's why the aeration provided by an Eheim diffusor will be far superior to the bubble wand, plus it is more quiet, doesn't require an extra power supply, and comes at a bargain price of around $10. What's not to like?
 

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Do you think I would benefit from one of those or do I have enough surface agitation w/ my spraybar? Im planning on stocking about 8-10 mbunas.

 

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I see you have a Power head. Does it have an opening on the top side for an aerator? I use the cheapest I can find and even those have a system to inject air. The Ehiem does the same thing as the powerhead aerators. As the water flows past the tubing that extends above water, air is sucked in and spit out with the water. I don't use the air as it makes a fair amount of noise but also all those bubbles bursting creates a real mess around where they break. In my hard water it amounts to a real constant hard water spatter.
If you really wanted to have the aerator pointed up, it would work the same if you extended the tubing farther down in the tank. All it does is suck air and spit it out. Lower down in the tank would cause more circulation as the rising bubbles will carry water upward as they rise.

My spin on the extra gas exchange from ripples at the surface is due to changing the water at the surface. The ripples indicate water movement and that means different water exposed for gas exchange. If you have good water circulation in the tank so that the water is not laying in layers, I feel the ripples don't add much.

I should say that I find neither are that much needed that I want to put up with the noise and mess they make. Personal choice, though.
 

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fmueller
1000% agree. I've been trying to point this out for quite sometime on forums but it's not a popular opinion. Oxygenation is probably the most overlooked item. I've cured many a friends fish tank woes with nothing more than a $10 bubbler. Diseases cured including Ich, algae problems eliminated, breeding triggered. I am quite fond of the wooden airstones as they often have the same feature... tons of tiny little bubbles!

I often think that bioballs and wet drys became so popular back in the day simply because of the unseen benefits of the higher O2 levels that those setups give us... as bioballs and wet drys fade from popularity, I've seen more and more threads with issues that were quite quiet back in the wet dry days! :thumb:
 

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When doing water changes with a hose is there a significant advantage (in terms of oxygenation) to have the water flow out of the hose ABOVE the water level in the tank?
 

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zimmy said:
When doing water changes with a hose is there a significant advantage (in terms of oxygenation) to have the water flow out of the hose ABOVE the water level in the tank?
It would oxygenate the water more than not, but if the system wasn't designed to continue to oxygenate the water, you'd quickly lose any benefit.

I often think that bioballs and wet drys became so popular back in the day simply because of the unseen benefits of the higher O2 levels that those setups give us... as bioballs and wet drys fade from popularity, I've seen more and more threads with issues that were quite quiet back in the wet dry days!
My experience would agree. I design my wet/dry's so the water is aerated at a few different points, not just for the bacteria. I think it's importance is overlooked largely because it's not easy to measure. And we see the disease or whatever as the primary issue when it's really the secondary. Stress can trigger disease and low oxygen levels can stress a fish. I remember a thread a while back that I was involved in that I eventually gave up on because there was so much opposition to the idea that oxygen levels mattered much. We were solving a problem that didn't exist, at least in the eyes of some.
 

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prov356 said:
I remember a thread a while back that I was involved in that I eventually gave up on because there was so much opposition to the idea that oxygen levels mattered much. We were solving a problem that didn't exist, at least in the eyes of some.
I think I remember that thread... perhaps it's time to resurrect the hypothesis! :thumb:
 

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zimmy - you are finding the fanciest things! I have to admit I have never seen either of those gadgets, but they are probably both venturi valves - as is the diffusor I usually recommend. I am almost tempted to order those things, just so I can check them out. Too bad Santa has just been through, but maybe the Easter Bunny will reward me :D

Also, thanks for the widespread support for my ramblings about the importance of oxygen
 

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Number6 said:
prov356 said:
I remember a thread a while back that I was involved in that I eventually gave up on because there was so much opposition to the idea that oxygen levels mattered much. We were solving a problem that didn't exist, at least in the eyes of some.
I think I remember that thread... perhaps it's time to resurrect the hypothesis! :thumb:
I'm assuming this is the thread being referred to:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... c&&start=0

Great read (including the many links referenced)! Here's two posts that stood out for me as being important to serve as a foundation for continuing the discussion.

Tim (prov356), I'm curious what you learned from using the DO meter you purchased.

prov356 said:
It's not a major problem in aquarium keeping. Those have all been addressed pretty well. So,
when something like this comes along that may be a problem with certain fish, it can be
intriguing to explore it.

It also could be something that is more of a problem than we realize. Maybe 'problem' is
strong. Fish can live for quite a while and seem to do ok in high levels of nitrate, but we know
now via studies that have been done that certain levels can have long term negative effects on
fish. Oxygen may be the same.

We may find ways to fine tune our systems so that fish that are sensitive to lowered oxygen
levels are no longer exposed to same. We may also learn some surprising things about our
filter systems and how well they oxygenate the water. We may explode some myths, and/or
confirm others.

I don't see the posts the way you do. I don't see everyone here jumping up and down and
waving their arms over the serious oxygen problem in aquarium keeping. I think what you see
instead are just emotional responses to other emotional posts. And that makes it appear that
the issue is being elevated by some when it's really not.

I am sort of amazed at how some that think this isn't worth the time can't just walk away.
From my seat it appears that we have some that have decided that this isn't worth anyone's
time and would just like to see the thread die. I see the thread getting seriously sidetracked
wasting time defending it's existence instead of moving ahead.

When we all put our collective knowledge and experience together and aren't afraid to ask
'what if' and 'is it possible that maybe we can do this better', then I think a forum like this
reaches it's full potential. Too often these types of threads get killed when we're all told to get
our minds back in line with the community 'group think'. I've seen it too often. And you know
it's true. Suggest something that goes against the mainstream and risk being seriously flamed.

Some seemingly ridiculous ideas or suggestions can spawn off other ideas and lead to useful
things. It's ok to just kick stuff around and see what turns up.

One last thought and I'll be done. I think there are a couple of different camps when it comes
to aquarium keeping. Some are into the details and some are not. The ones that aren't
really have a difficult time understanding the ones that are. Those details seem like a waste of
time and effort. To some, like myself, it's part of the fun of the hobby knowing the details even
if that's not a necessary part of successful aquarium keeping. It's the fascinating, fun stuff to
me.

I broke down and ordered a DO meter today and am looking forward to taking some readings.
It may turn up nothing useful, but I'll enjoy doing it all the same. It's just a hobby and we can
all take it wherever we want. That's part of what I like about it. You can go a lot of different
directions with it.

HTH
lloyd said:
thank you #6. after 6 pages of (mostly) useful dialogue, i was beginning to worry this topic would close with another 'it's all your fault for not knowing better...so why talk about it'.
here's a few things i have picked up so far:
1) temperature is relative to d.o. content. higher temps retain less of it, so species requiring higher temperatures, those who increase temperature for breeding conditioning, or remedies assisted with increasing temp (eg. ick) require attention to oxygen levels.
2) agitation alone cannot assure d.o. content. ventilation is also necessary. tightly fitted lids/canopies will deter good gas exchange.
3) hobs may loose the popular vote over sump type systems, but a hob delivering good surface roll, on a tank allowed ventilation areas around glass lids, is capable of delivering.
3) salinity levels are relative, as in more salt=less d.o. again, this is important for remedies involving salt, but also important for those keeping brackish species, and for those who include salt in their parameter adjustment mixes (eg. rift lake recipes).
4) water depth is relevant in nature, as in deep water has less d.o. content, but a few inches in aquarium is likely irrelevant. it is still worthy of note, for those keeping species demanding high d.o. content, than upper levels hold the majority of d.o. content. assuring good water movement, throughout the entire tank, is a good set up consideration for any tank. power heads are an important tool, too often overlooked by new hobbyists in particular.
5) bacteria are a major consumer of oxygen. although we need to tolerate certain bacteria, for cycling issues, detritus must be minimized to reduce decomposition issues within substrates and filter media.
6) oxygen depletion can occur rapidly when conditions allow. power outages, moving fish in pails/bags, extended periods of darkness, are just a few examples of time for concern.
7) photosynthesis is a major producer of d.o. content. plants are a welcome consideration to any tank, as well as tolerance for green algae, to assure good content. but the timing for light exposures on/off does become relevant, as all greens consume oxygen at night.
eight) water changes alone cannot assure d.o. saturation levels. but water changes do remove other accumulations, that compete for oxygen within water, so it is an important part of assuring good d.o. content.
9) more fish=more demand for oxygen. this is a logical consideration, when stocking species demanding high d.o., but might be overlooked by keepers who insist on overstocking their tanks. especially, during power outages, for example.
10) toxic levels (hypoxia) can occur quickly if anaerobic areas are disturbed. removing fish, before removing/changing substrates, is likely a good precaution. also, when siphoning, leave the nozzle in gravel until water runs clear before moving to the next area. removal is key. simply 'stirring things up' is dangerous.
 

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Tim (prov356), I'm curious what you learned from using the DO meter you purchased.
One day when I take it out of the box and actually use it, I can tell you. :) I was just really frustrated with that thread in many ways, and tossed it aside. I understand that it may or may not prove out to be anything, but did not understand the opposition to at least exploring the idea. Not sure what that was all about. Sometimes you just hit a nerve with people maybe.
 

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I look forward to hearing about your test results :)

I was a bit perplexed too by the opposition as I read the thread but I thought your post (pasted above) said what needed to be said to justify the exploration of the subject (though justification is not needed). Even if this whole discussion ends up leading to no meaningful change in practice, there seems to be ample evidence (as outlined in lloyd's post among other places) that adequate oxygenation is a variable of a healthy tank - a fact everyone seems to be in agreement about.
 

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[Eheim diffusor






I finally ordered one of these things. In typical Eheim fashion there are no instructions included. I have a question about the airline pipe that attaches to the outlet. Should the other end of the airline pipe hang over the outside of the tank or should it be in the tank just above the waterline?
 

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Wow! This thread seems like a blast from the past! Resurrected from the dead after almost exactly one year!

zimmy said:
I have a question about the airline pipe that attaches to the outlet. Should the other end of the airline pipe hang over the outside of the tank or should it be in the tank just above the waterline?
As long as the end of the airline pipe is open and out of the water, you can put it wherever it's most convenient for you. Mine hangs over the back of the tank, and one could argue that this way it draws air out of the room rather than circulating a fixed volume of air that's trapped under the hinged glass tops. But in all honesty, I don't think it makes a significant difference because even though the glass tops are pretty tight, the seal is hardly airtight.
 
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