South American Cichlids • Biotodoma Cupido

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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby Mr Chromedome » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:08 pm

Were the images linked from that forum? Some forums block image linking because it ties up their band width. Flickr is one of the services I've seen used here, also Photobucket. Both work just fine.
Happiness may be the door to Heaven, but Pleasure is not the Key. - attributed to Confucius
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Mr Chromedome
 
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby joemc » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:06 pm

Now the eggs are 31 hours old. I can see small black dots marking the eyes. She fanned of quite a number of eggs but there are still plenty. I think they already might hatch today. Incredible, the nest is 5cm away from the front of the tank

that is a great opportunity to take some pictures or video, hopefully you sill catch some of the action!
as the eggs hatch they come away from the rock, first in ones, twos then in batches as the female continues to fan them, she seems to get highly agitated at this stage, even stressed, it is at this stage that some are lost to any fish that can predate on them , fish like tetras etc that nip in and take the odd one, once all the eggs have come away she then proceeds to collect them and deposit them in a nest dug out in the sand or in a gap between stones, they look like a greyish mass of jelly at this stage and you can see the eyes clearly
another thing I would suggest to try to increase the chances of survival is a night light on the tank, or a room light left on just to provide the female with another aid to protect the eggs
good luck with them
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby RobertCupido » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:14 am

Thanks Guys! So heres my Flickr Gallery, of course have I taken pictures and Video! You don't know it, but I've taken a lot of your writings, helped me with how to put the behavior of these incrdible fish.
Image
Image
Image

Right under my eyes! This was really amazing. I could watch the eggs develope, of course a had a night light for better guarding.

Image
Image
Image
Image

I really wish I had a better lens for magnification. Now as soon as I can afford, i will get a macro for following Breeds. For the close Ups, I turned the Wideangle around and mounted it with some cheap adapter. Its ok, but now I regret not having better optics with more depth of sharpness. Hope you guys enjoy and I can spectate a little longer. The female really is doing fine and a great job guarding.

Ill keep you up to date!

Edit: I see it doesnt display the picture, hope you can follow the link! Annything I can do about that?
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby everlast » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Awesome.....more cupid owners to bounce ideas around with.
Im behind you guys in that I have a newly acquired colony of young fish, anyhow they have came on so much since I first posted photos/video of em.
The little one who I thought I might lose is lazarus...lol....dont know how but its back and is hanging with the group and is giving as good as "she" is getting :)
I asked for three males among my five females and yeah I have three larger fish which are growing slightly faster than the rest , they also have a very slightly different body shape and spot and black stripe are faint but the three of them are controlling there own section. One to the left side, one on the right and the one in the middle is trying to hold down the middle but is finding it hard due to the squabbling females who hang in this middle area. (I might of course be wrong, just reading behaviour and any concurrent body shape/size differences)...... :)

a little group shot..dominant male on this side has back to camera....they congregate towards me when i kneel down at the tank...not shy at all...even attack the syphon during water changes ;)
Image

Male? on right holding down centre ground with what I think is another female
Image

Male? that is holding down the right side
Image

The little female who I thought I had lost..shes settling into the group now after weeks of spot feeding/hiding ...used cattapa leaves in HOB filter to provide some medication to help heal her fins which were really bad...so happy she made it :)
Image

These are just my opinions to date guys and I might be completely wrong but I totally adore these fish, colours are improving every day :)
everlast
 
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:18 pm
Location: scotland

Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby everlast » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:14 pm

RobertCupido wrote:Thanks Guys! So heres my Flickr Gallery, of course have I taken pictures and Video! You don't know it, but I've taken a lot of your writings, helped me with how to put the behavior of these incrdible fish.
Image
Image
Image

Right under my eyes! This was really amazing. I could watch the eggs develope, of course a had a night light for better guarding.

Image
Image
Image
Image

I really wish I had a better lens for magnification. Now as soon as I can afford, i will get a macro for following Breeds. For the close Ups, I turned the Wideangle around and mounted it with some cheap adapter. Its ok, but now I regret not having better optics with more depth of sharpness. Hope you guys enjoy and I can spectate a little longer. The female really is doing fine and a great job guarding.

Ill keep you up to date!

Edit: I see it doesnt display the picture, hope you can follow the link! Annything I can do about that?


Awesome photos Robert!!......cant see them but if you right click "Copy URL" you can paste direct links into address bar ...easy to follow from there :)
I really need to "naturalise" the inside of my tank.....as I also said to Joe previously you guys have such natural looking layouts...inspiring stuff you two :)
everlast
 
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:18 pm
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby RobertCupido » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:21 pm

They are indeed!

Im not sure if its due to inconsistent light but i think the "male" you spotted, turning away on the picture, truly is more colorful and already kind of showing off. He might already present edgy fins. With the other... no clue. So far more "female" than male. In that age, both sexes tend to be territorial if they feel, they can step up to the claim. Except for the late one, they are really looking good! Did they mention the origin? The last one still has a very big eye in relation to his body, belly looks a bit turned inwards.

You can throw in the catappa at all times, not just for medical treatment but more for preventing illness and raising comfort. As soon as my tree drops a leave its going in. The green algea spots indicate nice water though. Id trade the valisnera (plant) you have for echinodorus and anubia and consequently dim the lighting. Throw in more brown leaves (oak and beech, they dont dissolve fast) and keep an eye on nitrat. The tank is very bright and that might be suitable for the spectator but hindering the fish in growth and color. Sexual dimorphism is always a kind of claim, they have to be brave for that. The darker the tank, the less recognised and exposed the fish, the less effort they put in hiding what might be stressful when always visible.

I have another tank with malawi cichlids. When starting it, i had to put in fish very early (glass needed to reglued) and system was not running well. Produced cyanobacteria and still does but Im towards recovey and a stable system. But a couple of month ago it was so bad, I decided to totally darken the tank for some days and cover it. Before the cover I had like one or two alpha males of each color and kind, supressing the others. After 4 days of darkness and relief from being so visible, all the other males developed.

Same thing with the cupidos. I took out the leader and suddenly my other males grow a lot stronger, more colorful and even bred. So darkening might help. I have a nymphaea glandulifera, lots of Epipremnum aureum and monstera deliciosa that tend to grow into and cover my already dim led lighting (considering the height of the tank of 60cm). Its paradox, but with this dark setup I see more of the fish. Your tank everlast, looks beautiful, but in effect it provides like only 2 spots that really feel supercomfy if the cupidos want to hide. These spots will be fought about and yoou might release energy for growth if the cupids dont have to worry about safety so much. The suggestions are just hints though, they're not a must. I think your fish really are doing good in that setup - nice work!

After their first night and day out oof the egg the wigglers are doing fine, there are still about 50 to 80 left from originally 500+ laid eggs. The female is selecting through the developement process, eggs that got fanned off to early or hatched way before the majority were eaten. I was struck with disappointment at first because the spawning pit was abandoned this morning. But she still defended the area and on closer look, she moved the wigglers beneath some moss ball for daycare. Now my LED simulates sundown and she took them back into the pit which she tidied up over the day. The couple was trying to push a moss ball into the pit before spawning and I thought I'd save them from the mistake because they wont get it out once it rolled in. Now Im not so sure anymore if that wasnt on purpose to add a portable hiding and feeding place as furniture into the pit.

Here are pictures of the daycare location nearby and the return to the pit when sundown announced bedtime for the small ones:
Image
Image

And the parents in full glory:
Image
Image

As you can see, she pretty much stays juvenile in the looks so your right in suggesting the sex isnt foor sure yet.

Cheers

PS my pics arent shown, can you see them/at least follow the links?

PPS you answered while writing and immediatly got the same idea with the tank setup :-)
RobertCupido
 
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:59 am
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby everlast » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:45 pm

Ok I messed around with some black insulating tape on inside of acrylic panel that slides into lighting strip...creating far more shadow...(Joe mentioned about using black card)...worked a treat :)
Tomorrow Im heading to my local beech wood to get a load of beech leaves and loads more branches....not gonna disrupt things too much. Just add some features to "naturalise" things a little...thanks guys.
Both of you have really made your tanks natural looking habitats and that seems to be the way to go with these awesome fish :)

Ill update soon for sure.

Ill be checking in often to see how spawn is comin along Robert :)
everlast
 
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby everlast » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:40 pm

Oh yeah the origin Robert....these fish are all wild caught from the Rio Nanay in Peru.
Yes the little malnourished fish is actually doing great, he was in far worse condition a few weeks ago.......was almost black, fins all tore up ...on entering the tank he got on the wrong side of my angel male and then the rest of the cupido colony followed suit. Its actually out now feeding with the rest of the group and gives as good as it gets.....seems to have made it stronger ....but yes still needs to fill out. The little one is my kids favourite....the underdog :)

I actually wondered if any of you guys had any subsequent biotodoma information ...papers/book excerpts etc. Checked my local library for books but nothing...infact the most information I have obtained thus far was from Joes awesome journal on another forum here on the interworld :)
If anyone has anything they deem relevant and in an appropriate format Id be very appreciative and happy to pm you my email :)
everlast
 
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby RobertCupido » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:18 pm

Be careful with the angels! In a friends tank they picked out the eye of a cupido at night now he's almost blind. I also have seen a tank where the company worked and the cupidos raised a breed in presence of angels.

I pour boiled water over the leaves (except the homegrown catappa) and then put it all in the tank. Not too much at the time because it's still organic "waste" and drawing oxygen.

In Germany we have almost famous aquarists that wrote a lot of books about cichlids. I have a big book "South American eartheaters" by Uwe Werner and Rainer stawikowsky. The book puts focus on Natural habitats, described the local variants and gives advice how to keep. I will check if there is a translation.

We also have a very strong structure of organizations, clubs, ngos, enthusiasts. The dcg, "German cichlid organization", has members with a almost any fish in care that can be imagined and is collecting reports, essays etc. Cupidos were also described but not as detailed as in Joes wonderful journal. I took a lot from his YouTube videos as well for interpretation of my fish. You really are in good hands here, once your cupids get grandchildren you'll see how all the puzzle pieces fit together.

I really wonder about all the bs about these fish on the net. Seems like some authors just didn't do their homework. In my Flickr gallery you can see, there is strong dimorphism. This all male myth and different height of habitat stuff is a myth. These fish are all over the place in South America and just rare because they are not as colorful when juvenile. They are the most peaceful eartheaters, they can be held in a smaller tank and in groups. It all depends on the interior. A friend keeps 5 pairs in 350l.

Oh... Put in additional fish to make them feel well. Tetras or mollies, anything suggesting it'll be eaten first and indicating the safety of the open water.

Fry us doing good by the way. Didn't have much time to watch today. Mother is still caring with passion and I'll setup Artemia tomorrow. I'm not sure they can take em already though.

Here might be some cupido I think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbEX-7s ... ata_player
RobertCupido
 
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:59 am
Location: Berlin

Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby joemc » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:31 pm

ahh, missed all the updates, I will have to post a video to show the changes in my stock in the cupido tank and have a good read of all the new posts
your photos are stunning Robert, probably the best documenting of cupido wigglers and fry development on the planet, my hat is off to you on your photography skills. now keep up the great work
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby joemc » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:45 pm

here is a video of my cupido from this evening
http://youtu.be/-EEVf1rYbv8
joemc
 
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:17 am
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby RobertCupido » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:23 am

Wow Joe thats amazing. You know in the beginning I thought I should reduce the company almost to species only level to have them raise the fry. Now while watching both our Cupidos successfully defending in the middle of a crowded tank (yours is even more crowded I guess) I will have to rethink.

Still haven't figured out the right density but there is a lot of tolerance if everything else suits them. A found pair is fine, bigger group also. I also have a pair of Apistogramma blue steel and a lot of dicrossus maculatus claiming their share of the ground. Kind of naturally all the fish make their way around the couple and fry. A beautiful view how the chaos of the little ones is following the mother. I heard from a friend that tried, that separating and raising by hand isnt the best idea. The part that was left in the tank grew better and stronger. I dont know about the exact conditions, how the separated fry was fed and water change... but I think its best to leave them in care of their parents.

Im feeding artemia nauplia and decapsulated with a small pipette. Being used to my hand in the tank, the couple isnt even stressed. With apistogramma I had to convince the mother like 2 to 3 times, that Im a source of food and because of her size she could even eat herself. The cupidos are really smart I guess because without having a try themselves, they figured me feeding their fry is helpful and even focused more on defending me and the small ones from paracheirodon simulans that eyed on the artemia as well.

When feeding, I always put in frozen bloodworms and dry Food before on the other side of the tank to distract the tank mates. I also reduce the current of the eheim filter so that the artemia dont spread to fast.

I update my Flickr reguarly for you to have a look! http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

Cheers,
Robert
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby joemc » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:30 am

again, your photos are great!
I see the belies of your fry are nice and full, now you see another of the myths about cupido dispelled, the fry are not tiny like many authors and internet sources claim :wink:
there is no doubt about the ability of wild caught fish to protect their fry, even in situations like a crowded tank, hopefully the cupido will never get to the stage of the domesticated angelfish and discus where many cannot care for their offspring.
I have noticed with a number of species that fish raised away from their parents grow slower initially, I generally put it down to the fact that the fry with the parents are constantly feeding on the millions of tiny life forms on the surface of the wood, sand rocks etc in the main tank whereas the fry syphoned out and raised separately tend to be kept in a sterile and recently setup tank without all these sources of food, relying on the keeper to feed regularly, you can see how these fry tend to congregate around the likes of a sponge filter and pick at it, but it just does not hold as much life as the main tank.
the lemon tetras in my tank tend to take the most fry, picking off any strays esp when some are knocked to the side by the cupido while fending off fish like the apistogramma that get too near.
joemc
 
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby RobertCupido » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:47 pm

Thanks Joe, I feel flattered!

Due to the rather poor documentation on first sight there are still sexing issues and stuff. Im sure we can clarify a lot as you guys already did before I came to this species. There are still tons of questions!

How fast was growth of the offspring? The wigglers morph pretty fast. When hatched, they were really small like the breed of bettas. But in the past 6 days they grew to 4 times the size at least. There are still 50+ of em I think and probably all of em will make it. Seems the right ratio when both parents are watching. Im not sure though how many eggs were layed. I will print a foto and count the dots while marking.

When did they loosen the bond to their parents in your tank? At what size and did the male lose interest first or did he stick around till almost all the small ones left the group themselves? Did you experience casualties when the fry got further away from the parents?

Since they belong to one "variant" and you didnt recommend the mixing, I will rearrange a bit. I could convince my father in law to get a new tank for christmas and I think I will hand the foreigners (which come from rio nanay in my opinion) to him for further coddling up and eventually breed as well. There are still two that might join my group because they again have different background and seem to fit more into the group I originally bought myself. As soon as I can, I wanted to give away a group of the F1 to keeper I got the run-down fish from. He puts a lot of effort into suitable conditions for them: Setting up a tank just for Cupidos according to my recommendation and adjusting the water with reverse osmosis. We both got the idea, that the F1 generation born and raised in a tank might be less vulnerable and more stable. Whats your thought on that and when to separate a group of ten? The earliest we might move a few in january and he is totally capable of raising since he has regular broods of geophagus winnemilleri and altifrons - he just couldnt cope with biotodoma and also did not know why.

Exciting times!

By the way, is there any possibility to have the flickr fotos in this thread?

Any new Updates from Everlast? I am developing another suspicion regarding the dimorphism. My adult males all show big sidespot in the form of a sqare or at least a circle. There are some females, were the spot appears more squeezed as in here:
Image

and here the one on the left which might be the same:
Image

Im totally not sure and the tank already got dark. Just a flash idea and tomorrow ill be looking at my fish for proof or dismissal.

Cheers,

Robert
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Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:59 am
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby joemc » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:58 am

hi Robert, the young grow pretty fast as I mentioned earlier, I had fry from Apistogramma macmasteri in the same tank free swimming within a day or so of each other, both were given the same food and the cupido passed them out by a mile, here is a video of the fry at 40 days old, I can see no reason why you would not take them out to raise separately even before then, it was around then that I started to remove some to give to friends.
http://s429.photobucket.com/user/joemcj ... c.mp4.html
only one of the guys had problems with the young growing and eating, but once I saw the setup he was keeping them in I saw the cause, nothing to do with the fish being too young or delicate, actually delicate is not a word I would use with the offspring at all!
regarding how long the parental bond stays, it is interesting, I left some fry with the adults, never removing them, that pair of adults spawned again about 8 -9 weeks later again, the female tended the eggs as normal with the male in the outer region of the spawning site, the remaining fry stayed in this area and the male still performed his parental duties with them, the problem I encountered occurred when the new fry became free swimming, the first group of fry thought of them as food and were picking off the strays, but when I syringed in decapsulated brineshrimp eggs for the new fry the previous batch of young darted in at the sight of the feeding tube and devoured both the food and most of the fry :roll: I suppose I should have seen that one coming! so my advice would be to remove the young once the adults decide to spawn again.
Once they hit about a centimetre+ body size I noticed them being more adventurous, spotting individuals straying away to explore the rest of the tank, by 2 cms they were nesting down in their own spot to rest for the night.
the other cupido do not make a serious attempt to eat the fry, plus it does not take the fry long to be too big to fit into the mouths of the other adults in the tank.
cupido in general are not big fry predators, I have had fry from a number of species in that tank, all raising young without major predation by the cupido, that is why I have the macmasteri 'pest problem' in that tank!
regarding sexing them, I just thing of them as any other earth eater, I find them easier to sex than subadult red head Tapajos I don't think the side blotch has any bearing on their sex, this varies in size fish to fish and with mood.
I don't consider the fry to be small at all, once they have absorbed the egg sac and are free swimming they are similar in size to the average Apistogramma fry, I have other fry here in tanks at the moment that I need a magnifying glass to spot, now they are small !
joemc
 
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