South American Cichlids • Biotodoma Cupido

Discussion regarding only South American Cichlid species. (Oscars, Geophagines, Discus, Apistogramma, Green Terrors, Angels, Severums, Pikes, etc.)

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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby RobertCupido » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:17 am

Took me several days, the catching. I had a bin with heater and oxygen next to the tank to separate the fish. I left the nets in the tank and whenever I was feeding, I tried to slowly corner out the fish. I had to migrate them in two transports. First two were an easy catch, the other took way longer.

I was very smooth but the overall stress made the eggs disappear, no poisoning this time. When I moved some of the big roots, I noticed heavy breathing - might be some foul areas that produced bad water for the young. I also planted some wild orchids and moss above the tank - the oxygen might have been drawn by substrate that fell in the tank.

With the latest wigglers hatched yesterday, the only thing I do is more frequent water change with added trace elements from time to time. I bought new artemia and also have bred Enchytraeus buchholzi. Everything looks good so far and the fish are beautiful. My sole survivor is showing good growth. This time, I'll pay extreme attention to hygiene. Whenever I put my hands into the tank to feed with the pipette I'll make sure there is not the slidest trace of residues. I will wash brine shrimp, let the exchange water stand for a day (to not draw too much CO2 when thrown into the tank and cause rapid change in ph). I also leave on a small light all the night, I forgot that the last time and in the morning the eggs were gone.

The pitty is, I still can't specify the problem and therefore have to consider kind of everything. But with the increased water change the frequence of spawns is also higher. Now its about every 3 weeks I guess. So there will be many more occasions I hope. Again Im confident it'll work this time. Apart from the common stuff light nightlight and water change Im afraid, Im in a very specific situation with a very individual tank. I still need to get to know my setup in its entirity and maybe change the approach. A lot of breeders I talk to are feeding as much as they can, sometimes in a small separate cage within the tank. But somehow I wouldnt consider the tank "done" when I have to take the offspring from the parents to raise because its impossible for them.

By the way: The second female maybe "due" tomorrow and it looks like she switched the partner a second time in the row. I hope, this third male now shows dedication. The first couple sure does and has a very nice spot thats easy to defend.
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby everlast » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:45 am

Hey guys, hope all is well..
I lost a fish this morning due to what I believe is bloat, was actually the smallest male so there may have been a stress issue which knocked him back a little and left him susceptible. I think also I am going to hang back on the feeds a little, particularly the prima. I have noticed them scoffing that stuff down whole and I think that combined with the fact that I havent been offering much by the way of vegetable matter.

Otherwise the fish are doing great, colour, size, health couldn't be better. I also managed to get the four Siamese algae eaters out of the tank as they were so big and greedy that I didnt want them stressing the cupids out (they werent cleaning much algae nowadays anyways ;) )

So thats it , Im gonna feed them some shelled peas today and fast tomorrow and do some extra water changes just to make sure I dont lose anymore.

What do you guys use as a veggie supplement for your cupids and what do you guys think of rift lake green new era pellets.
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby Iggy Newcastle » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:24 am

Regarding the New Era food, I looked up the ingredients-

Ingredients
Fish Meal, Dried Seaweed Meal, Cornstarch, Fish Oil, Krill, Squid, Mussel, Shrimp, Choline Chloride, Vitamin A Acetate, Cholecalciferol, dl-Alpha-Tocopherol, Potassium Chloride, Sodium Chloride, Dicalcium Phosphate, Magnesium Oxide, Calcium L-Ascorbyl-2-Monophosphate, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Molybdate, Folic Acid, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Biotin.



The thing I see right away is the word meal after fish and seaweed, indicating that the whole fish and all of the algae is not used. So the fish used in the food would be the 'leftovers' like the fins, heads, etc.

I just picked up some New Life Spectrum Algae Max. A food geared towards herbivores like Tropheus from Lake Tanganyika, certain Marine fishes and Mbuna from Lake Malawi. Here are the most of the ingredients. The food was just released late in 2013, so finding a complete list to copy and paste is tough. And I'm not typing it all out :(

Ingredients Algae; Chlorella, Ulva Seaweed, Red Seaweed, Kelp, Spirulina, Wakame Seaweed, Whole Antarctic Krill, Whole Fish, Eucheuma cottonii, Spinosum Seaweed, Chondrus crispus, Whole Wheat Flour, Omega-3 Fish Oil, Alfalfa, Astaxanthin, Capsanthin, Zeaxanthin, Vitamin D Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement

Crude Analysis Crude Protein (min) - 32%
Crude Fat (min) - 5%
Crude Fiber (max) - 10%
Moisture (max) - 10%
Ash (max) - 9% -


9 different types of greens. The word 'whole' mentioned before Krill and fish indicates that the entire animal is used. Not sure what's available in Scotland, though...

I've been following the thread, and don't have much in the way of input, but wishing you guys all the best raising these fish.
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby zimmy » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:17 pm

Sorry about the loss of your fish. I've been lurking on this thread since the beginning to learn more about cupids.

I switched from NLS to North Fin Premium Fish Food (a Canadian company) a couple of weeks ago and am really liking how my fish are responding to it.

I notice they make a veggie formula too. Following Iggy's example, here are the ingredients:

Ingredients: Kelp, Whole Antarctic Krill Meal, High Omega-3 (DHA), Herring Meal, Whole Sardine Meal, Wheat Flour, Spirulina, Garlic, Astaxanthin (Haematococcus Algae), Calcium Montmorillonite Clay, Vitamin A Acetate, L-Ascorby-2-Polyphospate (Source of Vitamin C), D-Activated Animal-Sterol (D3), DL Alphatocopherol (E), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Thiamine, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Biotin, Choline Chloride, Cobalt Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Selenium, Zinc.

Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein (Min) : 36%
Crude Fat (Min): 5%
Crude Fiber (Max): 5%
Moisture (Max): 9%
Ash (Max): 10%


They're supposed to soon release gel versions of a few of their products (including the veggie formula). They will need to be prepared at home by the user. It will be especially helpful when you're treating very early signs of bloat because medication is more effective if you can get the fish to consume it (as opposed to treating the tank). When I kept trophs and petros, I occasionally soaked their food in a concentrated epsom salt solution as a prophylactic measure when I saw early signs of bloat. It seemed to have a positive effect but mixing it in the gel version would have probably been even better.
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby everlast » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:25 pm

Thanks for input guys....at least it was just the one from my colony and yeah Im gonna choose one of the pellets you guys mentioned ..the New Life Spectrum Algae Max is available in the uk ...its a bit expensive but it looks to me like the holy grail of pellet food :)

Ill let you guys know how the fish get on with it, I think because my fish are wild caught and not captive bred they could be more sensitive to bloat than captive bred fish.

I liked the look of omega one stuff but not easy to find in the uk .

Cheers guys :)
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby joemc » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:58 am

sorry to hear you lost one of the fish Peter, it's always disheartening, I am by no means an expert on fish ailments, but are you confident it was bloat? did you cut open the fish afterwards by any chance and inspect its stomach? also was the fish bloated for a few days or bloated when dead. sorry for the obvious questions, but just curious as I have not seen it as a problem to date on any cupido. the angle I am coming from is that all these cupido people have are wild caught and are probably carrying a multitude of internal parasites when bought, if the fish are not treated when acquired and the fish becomes stressed or weak it can cause problems.
cupido in my experience are a real opportunistic feeder like most earth eaters, constantly sifting the substrate, sifting the detrus, picking at whatever attracts them, so I think variety and regular small feedings is the key with these fish, (also lots of water changes!) not any one particular food, I feed mine a mix of allsorts including tetra prima and no problems with them so far (fingers crossed!)
the one other thing I would say regarding food selection is size, remember they are a very small mouthed fish in comparison to other earth-eaters, actually maybe the cupido should be called 'earth pickers', their eating is similar to that of small birds picking grains of seed from the ground
on another note, I am delighted to see a couple of the thread lurkers confessing!!!!!! as I have watched the thread views top 10,000 I suspected there was no way only a half dozen posters were interested in these fish
joe
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby everlast » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:18 pm

Hey Joe :)

Yeah well Im pretty sure it was bloat, I mean I knew my guys were greedy but I maybe underestimated how much my large group of SAE were eating at feeding times and by taking them out the cupidos got a free go at eating as much as they could...... The bulging eyes and swollen abdomen were clear to see and my other fish are fine (or seems so ).....Im pretty confident I have called it right on this occasion, I changed around two thirds of the water over last two days and cut out feeds and the fish seem lively, hungry and colourful.

Im glad it happened in a way, I believe it was a wake up call regarding my feeding habits and I would rather have lost one than all of them..... I have New Life spectrum foods coming (algaemax pellets and Ultrared) and we shall see how it goes...Ill post some pictures in a few weeks once they get started on new diet.

Im not blaming the Prima ........more my approach to feeding and as such I will be way more cautious and it wont hurt to introduce more algae /greens into the diet....by my own admission I was feeding them stuff and it was lying on the sand for an hour or so till it was all gone. From now on Im gonna go with the 1/2 minute rule for feeding :)

Learning as I go...hands up **my fault**.........thanks for input as always Joe :)
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby joemc » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:35 pm

good stuff so, nothing like a little wakeup call!
looking forward to the updated pics / video...
cheers
joe
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby everlast » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:11 pm

On another note my little apisto caca pair have had some young and the female is taking a little troop around the tank...eating well.....I probably will put a pair of young into the big tank and a couple of teeny caves up the back in the shaded area.....
My angelfish group that are in with the cupido (bred by myself) are growing like you wouldn't believe and once the big male picks a female Ill take the other four out of the tank which will leave me plenty room for the little apistos to mess around in :)

Got another load of oak branches soaked and prepared to go into the big tank......really make the rear of the tank a refuge for the cupidos :)
And I am gonna add in a couple of anubias plants into the tank once I find a nice example....up till now I've only seen really small plants.

:)
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby RobertCupido » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:44 am

Thought I might share some thoughts on how the couples work:

Partners can change! A couple staying together is not a given thing. The fish are bonding very strongly though, the longer the parents have led fry, the stronger the bond. But if it fails and the community of the tank undergoes some changes, the female might forget her partner really quick. The coloring stays like for 1 day, after that she is leaving the site and minding her own business for like 3-4 weeks. Then she starts to chatter from time to time. This is when the males get alert and start hostilities. There are several types, some avoid the conflict and look for shelter. Others defend a certain area and one or two are trying to constantly accompany the female. They push in between the line of sight, whenever another male shows up.

Now when the time is right, its up to the female. She could choose a place and mate with the male, that managed to stick next to her side or she is provoking further conflict by swimming near the occupied areas of others. She will get to see only the male by her side and he keepsoff all others, proving his dedication and strenght by that. Than its only a matter of time for natures call. The day, they gonna spawn, the belly is rounded by the eggs and the ovipositor is already clearly showing. Maybe the day before that the couple already dug some pits and cleaned excavated roots or stones as substrate. I've seen both variants and the stones seemed to work better. The male should defend the perimeter, usually 30cm. The main pit is right beneath the spawning site, the female fans off the eggs into the pit when hatching. The hulls sometimes still stick to the substrate and the wigglers wiggle their way out of it - 40 to 48 hours after spawning. Now there is 3 days of shivering in the pit. There should only be a breeze of current and the ground of the tank should be fine in granularity. If the spacing in between the gravel is to big, the vulnerable young get trapped and out of reach of the mother. Fine sand forms a plain surface for the wigglers. Now I have the third day of shivering in the pit, the yolk bag is still visible but close to the complete metamorphose into the belly. I guess tomorrow, the fry is going to start swimming short distances above the pit.
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby everlast » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:26 pm

Fantastic Robert......when you have a young group like mine and your looking for signs of spawning behaviour it is valuable to get an insight like this into behaviours of the fish and what to expect..much appreciated :)

One of these days Im gonna come on here with my own stories of spawning ^^

Cheers
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby everlast » Thu May 08, 2014 6:23 pm

Hey guys....hope everyones well.......have a few shots of my fish ..really coming on..colouring up well and definite fin extensions all evident :) First shot is an obvious male and second a female .....ill try and get some better shots soon as I get a chance :)
Oh and hey Joe......managed to get a nice array of anubias going on, perfectly compliments the low light setup...thanks again :)

Image

Image

Oh and hey Joe......managed to get a nice array of anubias going on, perfectly compliments the low light setup...thanks again :)
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby joemc » Fri May 09, 2014 2:30 am

sweet, I always wish I could take good photos.. but I have more hope of learning to fly I would say
your fish are looking great, go on stick up a new video if you get a chance
the news on my own fish is I have passed on most of mine to new homes, I still have a few here not collected yet, as I fished them out group by group I realised thee were more offspring in the tank than I though! so I had more to give away than I realised
tks for the update
joe
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby andywoolloo » Sun May 11, 2014 3:41 pm

beautiful fish and tanks , loved reading this thread thats one awesome fish that i have never heard of :fish: :thumb:
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Re: Biotodoma Cupido

Postby RobertCupido » Wed May 14, 2014 3:33 am

I envy you Joe, havent had significant numbers of youngsters yet. One pairs spawn doesnt hatch and because of changing the tech stuff in the tank, the second pair felt too stressed I guess. In the meantime I did not actively "try" because the lightning of the tank was a bit adapted and that took a lot of effort (liquid cooled LED, new controller, PC watercooling adapted...)

I also designed a website for my local aquarists club with my tank as backkground:
http://aquaria-zehlendorf.de/

Now Im up for another try.

Oh and I might have found the cause of fry suddenly disappearing:
FROZEN FOOD

It contains bacteria that might explode after unfreezing and I guess it was too stressful for the sensible fry. Or maybe it somehow sickened their stomachs. Ill be careful with that.
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