General African Cichlid Discussion • What should I do with my hybrids

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Postby acrosstic » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:52 am

Joea wrote:
acrosstic wrote:I don't think giving them to a fellow hobbyist would mean they would show up on the market


It's impossible for anyone to make this claim and it's naive for anyone to believe it. Fish can breed into the the hundreds and thousands over a lifetime and their offspring can do the same. Once you give even one away to a fellow hobbyist, you cannot guarantee that any offspring produced won't end up on the market.


LOL. Okay so I can't be 100% certain. However, even the people that think hybrids are all fine and good wouldn't be stupid enough to sell them to a pet store...even if they were that stupid...then another aquariust would have to buy the hybrids to put in his tank with endangered cichlids that would cause the dilution of the gene pool, which I doubt a cichlid keeper would do if he had those species. There are so many levels the system would have to break down in, that you can be sure that it is EXTREMELY RARE.

Add to that, if I gave them away, I'd inform them that these cichlids are not to be given to a LFS or pet store and that a person who wants hybrids are probably not people who are going to be trying to distribute cichlids, and even if they do would probably only be to people who want hybrids or people with few if any cichlids at risk or dissappearing in the hobby due to this. Example. do you really think an Electric Yellow is going to dissappear in the hobby or a red zebra?

The only reason hybrids are bad is if they happen to come into contact with species at risk of dissappearing in the hobby. It is up to us to make sure if we have one of those that we aren't breeding them with a hybrid, but otherwise what is the risk to the hobby? Is some small amount of genetic material from my electric blue going to eventually show up in electric yellows in the pet stores in like 20 years? Even if they do, isn't that nature? You don't think we have all the different species because they cross breed over a period of time?

Preserving endangered species is the goal, so if you are breeding them, it is up to you to make sure you don't buy from a place where you could get a hybrid of that species. My LFS doesn't take fish because of this. I have confidence in their fish for that reason. Are we supposed to make sure our LFS is responsible? #%$& yeah, but that is with where we spend our money.

Saying I have to kill my hybrids is stupid!

The better way to handle it, rather than say they can't get out is to say we have to handle them responsibly.

I'll make sure I don't give them to a pet store and intruct the new owners of them not to. That way the hybrids are responsibly handled without having to kill them, and we can be reasonsible enough not to allow fish store or breeders to get them. If each owner of a hybrid passes them on armed with knowledge that they are hybrids that shouldn't be breed with other fish, then that is enough to keep the hybrids for causing any harm in the hobby as long as we are responsible enough.

It is shady breeders and stores that cause the problems, but they will continue to do that regardless of what we do. We need to preserve the species at risk, that doesn't always have to mean killing hybrids. We need to create a system in which both can happen, because they both do happen. Not kill hybrids to keep them out of the hobby when they are going to get in regardkess if what we do. We should be responsible enough to let hybrids live, but make sure they don't get with our endangered species.

We've got mbuna, peacock, hap tanks, why not a hybrid tank where we can keep hybrids out of shady breeders tanks without killing them? They aren't all ugly and if you ever get a mbuna that is killing everything in your tank, you can just drop him into the hybrid tank and not worry about him killing so much. If the hybrids tempraments are bad as has been so suggested, then a nasty mbuna would fit in nicely in a hybrid tank.

Both sides of the argument are extreme. We need to pay attention to what we are doing with hybrids, but to suggest they aren't already out there is stupid and having to kill them for fear "they will get out" as if they aren't already is stupid.

We don't want them getting crossed with endangered species means keeping them out of the pet and fish stores. If you feel you have to kill them, fine, but I'd rather let them live in my tank or give them to another hobbyist that understands.

Setting up hybrid tanks is the best idea I've had. Why not? Getting hybrids as knowledgable hobbyist ensures they don't get into the LFS and into the gene pools of otehr species and they don't look half bad. Maybe you get lucky an a cross looks cool (Like my first batch).

Wow, that was long, but I just think both sides are a bit out of whack here.

I'll post some pics of my hybrids when I can.
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Postby thevein » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:22 am

had to kill my sole hybrid yesterday..........death by 55,000 gallon swimming pool, she was used as a dither to help cycle new tanks but with their unpredictable behavior and unpredictable aggression she decieded to go after my breeding group of O.Lithobates "z rock"........and we can't have that.

Bottom line kilpo, it's thinking like yours and actions of others that keep places like Wal Mart, Petsmart, and Petco with their fish departments in business. No disrespect intented but I'm so sick of seeing these posts and I always say I'm not going to read but my curiosity of ignorance and uninformed people compels me to take a glance. I with several other local breeders work our butts off to ensure that through conservation and selective breeding we allow this hobby to thrive in the future.

btw, who keeps and breeds dogs as a hobby? besides michael vick
90 gal Frontosa, Cobue afra, L. caruelus
55 gal Deep water hap, hap azureus
20 gal Grow out
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Postby thevein » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:25 am

acrosstic-


still don't believe that yellow labs and red zebras are dissapearing in the hobby, go to 10 local fish stores and buy one of each, bring em home and let me know what you find out :o
90 gal Frontosa, Cobue afra, L. caruelus
55 gal Deep water hap, hap azureus
20 gal Grow out
29 gal Ps. Saulosi
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Postby Number6 » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:50 am

Acrosstic, your argument is not without merit, but try and take it further forward in time...

When the hybrids breed and produce another 50 hybrids, how many tanks are you going to setup?

What about when those 50 pair up and each pair has 50 more fry?

What is 25 times 50? 1250? Where will you house 1250 fish?

As for the suggestion that the only reason that hybrids can be bad being the pollution of one of the parental groups... well, no... that's not true.

Inbreeding after outcrossing (on average) produces the highest number of deformities of any pairing of fish... so when you give away hybrids, people have only one choice... they let them inbreed or the cross to an unrelated mix. Think about the consequences of that choice...

There's also the problems of the unknown effects of gene combos previously untried and add to that the odd effect of hybrids often being far more aggressive than either parental species.

Face it... eventually any breeder has to put down some fry... it's only a matter of time if you are good at breeding and rearing fry... I've had to put down purebred rfit lake cichlids and pure Apistogramma fry... why are hybrid fry any different than them?
My WC cichlids are gonna be caught on rod n reel!
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Postby lorebitzer » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:30 am

thevein wrote:had to kill my sole hybrid yesterday..........death by 55,000 gallon swimming pool, she was used as a dither to help cycle new tanks but with their unpredictable behavior and unpredictable aggression she decieded to go after my breeding group of O.Lithobates "z rock"........and we can't have that.

Bottom line kilpo, it's thinking like yours and actions of others that keep places like Wal Mart, Petsmart, and Petco with their fish departments in business. No disrespect intented but I'm so sick of seeing these posts and I always say I'm not going to read but my curiosity of ignorance and uninformed people compels me to take a glance. I with several other local breeders work our butts off to ensure that through conservation and selective breeding we allow this hobby to thrive in the future.

btw, who keeps and breeds dogs as a hobby? besides michael vick


I suddenly realize this forum is not for me anymore. My tanks are full of hybrids and I love them all.
Bye everyone!
:( Loretta
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Postby Kilpo » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:47 am

Wow Thevein, you sound so smart you must have a PhD in cichlid studies. :lol:

To say that hybrids will ruin this hobby is just silly. If you don't want a hybrid, DON'T buy a hybrid, it's your choice. Do you really think that all Electric Yellows will just vanish in the future, guess what they won't.

I guess maybe we should only buy 1 fish species from a breeder at a time after all we wouldn't want to have brothers and sisters breeding would we? Is that your next thought??? Would the fry be more aggressive and unpredictable? I figure I would ask you because you know all.

I would like to see a study that shows hybrids are more aggressive than others. Oh, I forgot, your a local breeder who has learned so much on your off time from working at Taco Bell and I should just take your and some others word for it.

BTW- I would say there are people who keep breeds of dogs as hobbies and a second source of income. I for one, have 2 Boxers and a Boxer mix, I guess you could think of them as a hobby. If I knew the puppies would be taken care of I would breed my dogs. Most mutts are in way better health than pure breds by the way.
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Postby Number6 » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:02 pm

Kilpo wrote:If you don't want a hybrid, DON'T buy a hybrid, it's your choice.

How? how do I avoid a hybrid when they can often appear just like a parental species and it's only in the fry they produce that the results are junk... how do I avoid that which I can't see?

Kilpo wrote:Do you really think that all Electric Yellows will just vanish in the future, guess what they won't.

I've been shopping for yellow labs for some time now... they are extremely hard to find where the look like act like and are like the very first cichlid I ever owned when yellow labs were first introduced to the hobby... where are you shopping where you find yellow labs that look like labs with black only where it should be and are docile as they should be? All I can find is the all-yellow labs.

Kilpo wrote:I would like to see a study that shows hybrids are more aggressive than others. Oh, I forgot, your a local breeder who has learned so much on your off time from working at Taco Bell and I should just take your and some others word for it.

To the first part... who on earth would pay for a study on cichlid aggression? What publication would I find this in? Sorry, but there has to be a topic of interest for a study to be done on something...

as to the latter part, what an ignorant insult to attack others with... I guess since you lack substance, ad hominem attacks are to be expected...

not that it's relevant but I'm quite happy with wife, kids, house, career, fishing... cichlid keeping is rather low on my list of priorities in life thanks... :roll:
My WC cichlids are gonna be caught on rod n reel!
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Postby CDMOK » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:16 pm

Number6 wrote:
Kilpo wrote:Do you really think that all Electric Yellows will just vanish in the future, guess what they won't.

I've been shopping for yellow labs for some time now... they are extremely hard to find where the look like act like and are like the very first cichlid I ever owned when yellow labs were first introduced to the hobby... where are you shopping where you find yellow labs that look like labs with black only where it should be and are docile as they should be? All I can find is the all-yellow labs.


Agreed.

The yellow labs you find in LFS and commercial chains are not of good quality and not always pure. I have learned this from personal experience.

Just because every store in the world carries Yellow Labs doesn't mean they are quality yellow labs or pure bred yellow labs - which is, after all, what this entire argument is about.

I don't think you understand, Kilpo, that the main frustration over hybrids is that those of us who are serious in the hobby want specific fish, and we spend a lot of money in order to obtain them. When those fish breed and their offpspring is not the same species that we thought we had and that we paid to have, it is quite a dissapointment. We can't sell those fry, we can't proudly keep them. So what, then? Keep them in a tank in a closet? :wink: Not that all hobbyist would go to any extent to euthanize or even dislike their hybrids - but at least understand the reasoning for those who do.
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Postby Kilpo » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:19 pm

Number6, you could always buy your Electric Yellows from Thevein, I'm sure he has some nice ones he is a knowledgeable breeder after all. I know for a fact 3 stores here in the Denver area will have nice looking Electric Yellows (Golden Fish, South Broadway Tropicals and Todd's). Maybe you just need to look a bit!

I guess Thevein saying that I am ignorant and uninformed is OK with you because you happen to think the same way. I figured I would fire back at him if he wants to talk smack!

And, your right, "who on earth would pay for a study on cichlid aggression"...exactly!!! Then how the heck do you know?????

I think I have plenty of substance...you are the ones stating all this stuff like it's fact! GIVE me proof, you CAN'T!
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Postby CDMOK » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:22 pm

Mods, can we please lock this thread?

It has been taken from a genuine question of concern to a debate that has become less than childish.

For those truly interested in the ill-effects of hybrids, I suggest a forum and library search on the issue.
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1M Placidichromus Phenochilus
1M/1F Aulonocara Flametail
2 Bristlenose Plecos
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Postby Number6 » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:36 pm

Kilpo wrote:I know for a fact 3 stores here in the Denver area will have nice looking Electric Yellows (Golden Fish, South Broadway Tropicals and Todd's). Maybe you just need to look a bit!
Do they have the black where it should be? and proper head shape? and their aggression level? does it range from mellow to medium aggression only?

and do they breed true for 5, 10, 15 generations? How do you propose I find this out? I don't need to worry about those questions with purebreds where I can trace them back 10 to 15 generations to who shipped them in from the lakes themselves...

Kilpo wrote:And, your right, "who on earth would pay for a study on cichlid aggression"...exactly!!! Then how the heck do you know?????
I don't think I've ever read a study that says sticking a fork into my eye causes blindness...
Besides... reread my words... I never said it is a fact that hybrids are mroe aggressive than the parental species... I said it's often. I chose that word specifically. It is a tendency not restricted to the cichlid world that has been noted by a large number of people involved in animal husbandry that hybrids are often more aggressive... this tendency can and will have exceptions.

Kilpo wrote:I think I have plenty of substance...you are the ones stating all this stuff like it's fact! GIVE me proof, you CAN'T!
I can give you scientific studies on the other points about hybrids... just not the aggression part as it's not a topic of interest... it's just a general tendency. Which point would you like to hear more on?
My WC cichlids are gonna be caught on rod n reel!
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Postby thevein » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:50 pm

kilpos diarreha of the mouth is making want to go and flush my toilet :lol: ................. how in the world can you state something so ignorant like "if you don't want a hybrid, don't buy a hybrid" How the #%$& can some unexpecting novice such as yourself tell the difference?? Ever think that most people can't tell the difference. The dog comments are hilarious :lol: No comparison whatsoever. I'm dying to see some pics of the fish that these hybrid "activist" keep. I'm sure there is a parallel. BTW, not sure what "smack" is, some sort of drug right?
90 gal Frontosa, Cobue afra, L. caruelus
55 gal Deep water hap, hap azureus
20 gal Grow out
29 gal Ps. Saulosi
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Postby Kilpo » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:52 pm

Actually the main point I was bringing out with my first post is that I think it is just silly to put down fish because they are hybrids.

You ask-
"Do they have the black where it should be? and proper head shape? and their aggression level? does it range from mellow to medium aggression only?

and do they breed true for 5, 10, 15 generations? How do you propose I find this out? I don't need to worry about those questions with purebreds where I can trace them back 10 to 15 generations to who shipped them in from the lakes themselves...

Do you know this on any fish you buy? Do you study every fish you buy on their behavior before you buy it?
Most of all, is every pure Electric Yellow's temperament the same...NO, it's NOT! Does that mean you should kill the ones you don't like?

Maybe you should just order WC...if your that into it and don't want some mutt of a fish in your tank. Oh, but then not all WC act the same either, darn it, I guess we will just have to kill a few of those as well!
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Postby Kilpo » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:55 pm

All this coming from a guy whos biggest tank is a 90...lol
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Postby thevein » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:59 pm

cdmok is right, I'm gonna go somewhere and grow up

I guess in the end it really just bothers me in that great pioneers of this hobby, Stuartgranti, Konings, Ribbinick, etc have spent their lives to bring the rift lakes' beautiful fish into our livingrooms and our lives and to see the growth of irresponsible and ignorant "fish keepers" (not hobbyist) attempt to taint decades of reasearch and hard work blows my mind.
90 gal Frontosa, Cobue afra, L. caruelus
55 gal Deep water hap, hap azureus
20 gal Grow out
29 gal Ps. Saulosi
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