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Kyoga Flamebacks and Tiger Barbs

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:14 am
by BURGH
:fish: I have two tiger barbs and two Danios in a 70 gallon tank.

Other fish in the tank are catfish 4 types and Plecos Bristlenose.

I have 10 Kyoga Flamebacks I am about to introduce after 4 weeks in quarantine.

Does anyone think there will be a problem with the Tiger Barbs or Danios.

The Flamebacks are 1"-2" in size.

Danios 3"-4" and tiger barbs 1.5"

Thanks! :fish:

Re: Kyoga Flamebacks and Tiger Barbs

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:36 am
by james1983
I don't this so. I would add more barbs if you plan to keep them long term.

Re: Kyoga Flamebacks and Tiger Barbs

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:27 pm
by tanker3
Problem, maybe not. I just do not like mixing fishes from 2 "so different" water types. One is very soft and acid, the other very hard and alkaline.

Re: Kyoga Flamebacks and Tiger Barbs

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:54 pm
by BC in SK
tanker3 wrote: One is very soft and acid, the other very hard and alkaline.

Not really making any statement on how suitable GD's and TB's would be as tank mates for Kyoga flamebacks, but this statement is defintiely false. And it perpetuates the myth of most African cichlids coming from really unusual water parameters. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Searched through academic papers and all say that the water chemistry of Lake Kyoga is very similar to lake Victoria.
Lake Victoria: http://malawicichlids.com/mw01011.htm electrical conductivity of 91-145 microseimens. dGH: 1-4. In what world could that ever be considered "very hard water"? It's softer water then some so called soft water SA cichlids come from!
Some pH measurements from lake Kyoga.http://wldb.ilec.or.jp/data/databook_html/afr/afr-15.html pH 7.1, pH 7.4, pH 7.6. Nothing excessively alkaline.
Water parameters taken for lake Kyoga showing very similar to lake Victoria.http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/T0473E/T0473E11.htm electrical conductivity of 90-200 microseimens and calcium and magnesium that equates to a dGH of 2. Nothing at all that could be described as "very hard'!
There is no doubt that both giant danios and tiger barbs are typically found in much harder water, and even sometimes, similar pH. Yet, time and time again such a big deal is made of the water that African cichlids come from.

Re: Kyoga Flamebacks and Tiger Barbs

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:45 pm
by DJRansome
I checked the Profile and it seems OK for the Kyoga with pH 7.2 to 8.6.

I googled barbs and there is some info out there that wilds are better off at or below neutral. BC in SK do you disagree?

Danios it seems there is more of an overlap. They are reputed to be quick so maybe they will be OK?

I'd like to know the dimensions of the 70G and whether OP is going to keep all 10 Kyogas.

For me the Kyogas were pretty timid...I wonder if the barbs would harass them. Just guessing.

Re: Kyoga Flamebacks and Tiger Barbs

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:52 pm
by BC in SK
DJRansome wrote:I checked the Profile and it seems OK for the Kyoga with pH 7.2 to 8.6.

So what?
That is the pH range for lake Victoria. Even though many of these Victorian cichlids do not come from lake Victoria. Nor do they even come from especially hard water ....but they will be listed that way for many different fish from many different lakes/rivers. Lot's of inaccuracy in the cichlid-profiles. But this is just a general guideline.
DJRansome wrote:
I googled barbs and there is some info out there that wilds are better off at or below neutral.

Danios it seems there is more of an overlap.

No, no. I want a link to an actual measurement from particular fishes habitat. Anybody can make up meaningless generalizations. All kinds of recommendations because an aquarist claims a fish did well in his/her water.
Hardness generally more significant then pH. The fact of the matter is these African cichlids do not even come from hard water(see the links above). The irony is the fish claimed to need softer water actually come from much harder water then the African cichlids.
Fish base lists pH 6-8 and hardness at dGH 5-19 for both GD's and TB's. Now I know fish base isn't always reliable for such info (becuase I beleive they often use literature from the aquarium hobby to get their info! :lol: ). But I suspect if i went to the trouble of looking through academic papers for the info (as i have done so for many cichlids) that i will easily find hardness values in excess of the soft water of lake Victoria (dGH1-4) or lake Kyoga (around dGH 2).

Re: Kyoga Flamebacks and Tiger Barbs

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:24 pm
by DJRansome
OK just checking to see if you thought the general guidelines available to the average Joe were outright wrong.

I get that you want to reset the guidelines to different parameters.

And maybe make the point that tank raised fish are not kept in water like the wild fish in any case.

I do like to try to mimic the water parameters for the wild fish when I know what they are (without going to the trouble of looking through academic papers) and if my tank raised fish are acclimated to same. My sources for Africans do keep the fish at a higher pH.

Thanks a lot! Now I have to start over researching GH. LOL.

Seriously though, I respect the level of your concern for the fish in your care.

Do you keep barbs? Do you have a guess as to how they would do with Flamebacks?

Re: Kyoga Flamebacks and Tiger Barbs

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:49 pm
by BC in SK
DJRansome wrote:Do you keep barbs?

I have kept Tiger barbs with aggressive cichlids in the past. I did not have long term success with them. Cichlids such as convicts killed them off in a matter of months. I would have kept them at some point in time with "Victorians" though do not remember anything specific with their interaction. But I do know of some people who have had some success keeping TB's with aggressive cichlids and believe for the most part have better chance of succeeding then most 'schooling dithers'.
I like TB's. Problem with them is that they can sometimes be nippy. If a cichlid retaliates, they can end up on the losing end. Keeping them in larger groups is supposed to help in this regard.
Would they start off chasing and attempting to bully smaller cichlids? Maybe? IMO they have decent chance of working out with Kyoga flameback with out too much friction.
I've kept GD's for the last 3 -4 years or so with a variety of cichlids. IMO and IME they have the best chance of working out as far as small 'schooling dithers' and tend to keep to themselves more so. For what it's worth, I have purchased 26 and am currently down to 8 all together (lost most to predation and a few to aggression).
Water chemistry is a non-issue from my perspective. Especially considering both TB and GD are more hard water fish then the cichlid(s) being considered!

Re: Kyoga Flamebacks and Tiger Barbs

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:25 pm
by DJRansome
Point taken...always an adventure.

Re: Kyoga Flamebacks and Tiger Barbs

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:03 pm
by Fogelhund
I've kept Tiger Barbs, and Black Ruby Barbs in with Tanganyikans, and Malawi Haps and Peacocks in the past, with great success.

In a 6ft 150 gallon, I had Champsochromis caeruleus (1m 6f), a school (15-20) of VERY large Tiger Barbs and a Lepidiolamprologus hecqui pair...

Certainly an oddball mix. It had been a Tang tank, but I moved most of the other inhabitants, except the hecqui, as they had eggs in the shell at the time. One of the most entertaining things I've witnessed... and it was daily, was this 10" Champ male, in full dress, flaring his gills at the hecqui, and the hecqui absolutely not backing down... eventually the hecqui would attack, and the Champ would back off... everytime.

Plenty of fry from the Champs, and the hecqui, and the Barbs bred every few weeks for a while. I didn't raise any barb fry, nor attempt to.

Barbs and Danios really need to be kept in groups of 6-8 at minimum... I'd choose your favourite, return the ones that aren't, and make that group a good sized one.

Re: Kyoga Flamebacks and Tiger Barbs

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:51 pm
by mbargas
BC in SK wrote:
tanker3 wrote: One is very soft and acid, the other very hard and alkaline.

Not really making any statement on how suitable GD's and TB's would be as tank mates for Kyoga flamebacks, but this statement is defintiely false. And it perpetuates the myth of most African cichlids coming from really unusual water parameters. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Searched through academic papers and all say that the water chemistry of Lake Kyoga is very similar to lake Victoria.
Lake Victoria: http://malawicichlids.com/mw01011.htm electrical conductivity of 91-145 microseimens. dGH: 1-4. In what world could that ever be considered "very hard water"? It's softer water then some so called soft water SA cichlids come from!
Some pH measurements from lake Kyoga.http://wldb.ilec.or.jp/data/databook_html/afr/afr-15.html pH 7.1, pH 7.4, pH 7.6. Nothing excessively alkaline.
Water parameters taken for lake Kyoga showing very similar to lake Victoria.http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/T0473E/T0473E11.htm electrical conductivity of 90-200 microseimens and calcium and magnesium that equates to a dGH of 2. Nothing at all that could be described as "very hard'!
There is no doubt that both giant danios and tiger barbs are typically found in much harder water, and even sometimes, similar pH. Yet, time and time again such a big deal is made of the water that African cichlids come from.


Breeders in Florida raise all sorts of tropical fish that supposedly are better off in soft acidic water. What do they use? Water from the underground aquifer which is hard and alkaline. Most of them seem to do fine. There are of course some rare exeptions like Discus.