Cichlid-Forum

Three of my Neon Jewels all paired up as one team. Two females laid eggs in the same place, sometimes both at the same time, other times taking turns. Male followed fertilizing the eggs.
Always thought I might see this with cichlids at some point in time.....but never really thought of it happening with jewels. Had male convicts pair up with 2 or more females at a time, many times, and even breed with 2 females at a similar time on opposite sides of the tank, but the actual spawning act was never at the very same time and the females were always rivals/enemies. And of course, many times have had female convicts pair up together, but no male ever fertilized the eggs. Thought I might see this with salvinis as a male was pairing up with a female that was still paired up with a smaller female, but the male salvini wanted nothing of it and kept chasing the smaller female away.
Anyways, I captured the spawning act on 5 videos, not very good quality, but it does show what is happening. Can't see the eggs due to the poor video quality, though it is obvious they are laying. As well, you can see the breeding tubes of the two females who are both brighter red. The male has red on the lower jaw/throat and the rest of the body is sort of a dingy yellow-brown. The eggs were laid on the wall of the tank behind plastic plants fairly high up. Sort of unusual for cichlids to lay eggs that high up, though I have seen it on a few occasions.
Dec. 7 2016. Jewel Cichlid 3some:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8o9G2klIaQ&t=1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQz93PgYWlI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HebeCBCd18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoBzz1bb4XI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aneB9kWpvoQ

So I was thinking where are they going to put the wrigglers when they hatch? The corner of the tank isn't too secure so I leaned a rock into the corner of the tank.....but then realized they already hatched. Just over 48 hours after being laid. Now as if this isn't strange enough, they put there wrigglers even higher up, at the very top of the mat of plastic plants in the corner of the tank! I could see the bunch of wrigglers, though in the video it is not even close to being visible. Problem with where they put them is that it's not a great surface to hold them, and some fall frequently and they have to catch them and bring them back up. This video shows what they had to do most of the time. bring a wriggler from the bottom, swim to the top corner of the plastic plant and spit it back out.
Dec. 9 2016.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0q0LOtnlT0
They all took turns fanning the eggs, though the smallest female spent more time doing so, while the larger female and the male more often were on guard duty. Later that evening on Dec. 9th, disaster struck for the neon Jewels The common pleco came into the corner of the tank after the wrigglers. Not sure he managed to get much of any, but he disturbed the plastic plant, and while all 3 jewel where furiously attacking him, the wrigglers went into the water column and a horde of other fish in the tank gobbled them up. This happened twice. Nothing there the next morning.

Dec. 11 2016. The smaller female paired up with another male. She's still paired with the larger female as well , though I am not certain this male is fully accepting the larger female, yet. Looks similar to the way the first trio started out, though can't say yet, If I will see the same again.
Made a cave out of a plastic yogurt container, with a whole in the middle to enter it and covered it with plastic mesh(tiger mesh) and sand and cement. Would make a very secure breeding cave. Placed in the corner of the tank today. So far doesn't look like they are going to use it....can't force them to choose it
I'm new to neon Jewels since may of this year. So far they seem to be a little different strain compared to a regular jewel, at least based on the 6 I have. I was fooled on their sex for quite some time as the females have not only fairly male body shape, but so far even more of a male forehead then the males! Looking at some other threads and pictures, I see that it is not peculiar to just mine. Also these 6 are more laid back and less aggressive then other jewels I have had. Three are for absolute certain on there sex as I not only seen there breeding tubes during the act but seen the eggs coming out of the tube. The other 3 I am now fairly confident on there sex as well. Makes for 3 males and 3 females. The larger female in the videos is not only the largest, but the top fish in the tank. Sort of odd that the 2 of the females are largest, and also one is the more dominant amongst them.

Cool thread.

DJRansome wrote:Cool thread.

Not sure if it's a cool thread or whether the thread is good or not......but it's very unusual and needed to be reported. I did my best to try and document it because as far as I know, no such thing has ever been reported. 3 cichlids altogether as one spawning team can't even correctly be called a pairing as a pair means 2.
Dec. 15 2016. Male that had paired up with smaller female on Dec. 11 is now paired up with the 3rd jewel female on the left side of the tank. Spending most of his time there as I would bet they are going to lay with in a couple days. That is the usual way a male substrate spawner breeds with more then one female: divide his time up between separate females and separate territories. IME, with convicts and the division of the male's time between two females, much more of the male's time is given to courting and tending fry and a female can be almost close to abandoned with eggs/wrigglers.
The 2 jewel females are still together on the right side of the tank. When the male does come over, doesn't appear he wants anything to do with the larger female.
The male jewel from the video is currently very low in the pecking order of the tank, and generally stays on the opposite side of the tank of where ever the dominant male happens to be.

Back in the early 1970s, a friend of mine had a group spawning from Angelfish. It started with two females and one male, but on occasion involved two males and as many as FIVE females. However, Jewels aren't usually as sociable as Angels can be when not breeding. She wrote about it in the club bulletin, which in those days was distributed to other clubs as far away as California. Some people, such as Guy Jordan, suggested that it happened due to the fact that her tank was very crowded. She did have like 10-12 angels in a 40 gallon long tank!

So it has been recorded among Cichlids before, but I've not heard of any such spawnings since then. That is, until now.

BC in SK wrote: left side of the tank. right side of the tank.

My bad.
Meant right side of the tank when I said left side and vise-versa. Was too late to edit.

I too have had 3 Angels breed together at the same time with 1M and 2F. I guess it is not unusual for this to happen, but maybe with Jewels.

Mr Chromedome wrote:Back in the early 1970s, a friend of mine had a group spawning from Angelfish. It started with two females and one male, but on occasion involved two males and as many as FIVE females.

Very interesting!
I think cichlids often have more then one breeding strategy.
There not so "hard-wired" to do things exactly the same way every time but can adapt to particular situations or circumstances.
To see something in captivity sort of suggests that MAYBE they may do it that way in the wild, at least sometimes.

Mr Chromedome wrote: but I've not heard of any such spawnings since then. That is, until now.

Yeah, it definitely can't be too common.
Bred jewels well over 50 times, and never saw anything like it, but really haven't kept them in groups very long.
And I think the 'neons' are a little different. We don't know exactly what they are. Was leaning more towards line-bred variant of guttatus before I owned them, and they could be that, but now I think regional variant or undescribed the more likely.
So far, based on the 6 I have, they are rather timid and not too aggressive compared to regular jewels. They pretty much have to be pushed into fighting back...though pushed enough they seem to have a similar ability to defend as other jewels. The space they claim spawning is even less then regular jewels and even regular jewels IME, don't claim the space that even convicts usually do.

tanker3 wrote:I too have had 3 Angels breed together at the same time with 1M and 2F. I guess it is not unusual for this to happen, but maybe with Jewels.

I still think that it is not common ....though good that you post this as it maybe less unusual then I think it is!

Just a little update on the Neon Jewels.
Pair on the right side laid eggs shortly before Christmas. Here they are with free swimming fry Dec. 27th.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdZDoBT5Y5U Female is the larger and redder.
Fry were removed Dec.28.
Shortly after, trio on left side were back together again. The last few days some threatening has occurred in the middle of the tank between the 2 groups. Today it came to a real confrontation with the smaller female on the left side taking on the larger female on the right side (female in video of this post). Some how in this confrontation and commotion, the larger female from the left side of the tank managed to switch sides and pair up with the other male while the other 2 females were having it out. Now the original right side female (from the video) is no longer paired up; low in the pecking order and runs away from the others.
Anyways, with 6 jewels in a 75 gal. got to keep my eye on it. Not really too violent yet, but someone will likely have to be removed fairly soon before it really escalates.

Another update.
New trio formed. Same two females from the original trio, now teamed up with the other male on right side of tank. Currently have eggs. Unfortunately did not witness the act, but all 3 are taking turns fanning the eggs and defending the area. Hopefully I will get to witness 3 tending fry soon. Pair on the left side currently with fry.
Previously had 2 pairs with fry at the same time. Horrible quality video from jan. 10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_aAmirZ0lI.
Older camera that never took great video, but all the videos seem to be worse then ever. Will be getting new camera soon.
So far both males have bred with all 3 females! Lot's of switching partners in a very short period of time.
I sort of think the trio forming is sort of being driven by having fairly large and dominant females.
Fanning eggs is something I have very rarely seen in CA cichlids. Only a couple times with unusual circumstances but otherwise egg tending the exclusive domain of the female. Fry tending, usually fairly split duty, but egg tending exclusively female. Jewels are different in this regard in comparison to CA cichlids. Have always seen the males involved at least somewhat, with tending eggs. But what I have seen with some of these recent spawns is a fair amount of role reversal with the larger females doing more guard duty and the males fanning the eggs more then the females (with the exception of the smallest female).
I've also removed the smallest male jewel, so there is now 5 jewels in the tank. Also moved 2 of the 4 demasoni males over to my 90 gal.

Trio on right side laid eggs again. Fry became free swimming on feb. 5.
3 jewels tending fry:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oElpyzPUXQ

The Jewel groups have been stable and have stayed together for some time now. A trio on the right side and a pair on the left side. The trio has small territory as the pair on the left keeps them contained to about 1/4 of the tank. The trio currently have fry that became free swimming about 2 days ago. Some video, better quality then previously:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lda_GpD8IVI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBEM7iRePos

That's incredible. They look stunning too.