Lake Tanganyika Species • Golden julis

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Re: Golden julis

Postby John arnold » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:36 am

Samadhikash wrote:When I first got into Julies, I found the breeding notes here https://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/vie ... p?t=347649 and here https://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=422 helpful.

One thing that stands out in both is the idea that pair formation is encouraged or enhanced by a joint defense of breeding territory. Whether the two are working to kick out conspecifics or others in a community tank/introduced targets it seems to me the process is the same.

Second, pairing isn't necessarily immediate and pretty. This isn't a Disney romance. Instead you'll often get bickering, nasty attitude, and general conflict until a pair has bonded. And for sure, letting them choose who to bond with is less demanding than trying to work out an arranged marriage. Conflict between two Julies doesn't mean they won't eventually bond and spawn. And there is some suggestion they enjoy a kind of testing phase where they determine if a potential mate is up to the rigors of the romance. :) Point is, don't separate too early or at the first sign of antagonism. Clearly you don't want incompatible fish to be locked in a death match and fish hiding in top corners or struggling to disappear behind a heater may be signs of a step too far, so monitor closely but give them a chance to be rambunctious.

I have found that two rock piles--one on each side of the tank--is helpful. Use a few rocks, flower pot shards, coconut hides, whatever gives them a place to hide. This helps to prevent rejected fish from trying to seek comfort in a rock pile claimed by a dominant fish. It also helps to net rejected fish. It gives them a place to dive for cover separate from the dominants and you can put in a tank divider, remove the rocks, and grab the fish while the pair is comfortably on the other side in their choosen space. This takes some patience and close observation so you know who you want to net, but if you watch purposefully I have found you can tell six fish apart by their markings. The downside is that the pair may decide your temporary hiding place is better than the pile you intend for them. Just be flexible here. Whatever place they choose for themselves is the one most likely to make them happy and spawn--at least that's the way I look at it.

I have not tried starting with adults. But my transcriptus juveniles have been very consistent in working themselves down to three fish. I get a pair, and one fish that is allowed to stay in the opposite rock pile. The pair is not aggressive toward the third fish, share space during feeding, but otherwise shoo it to its own side of the tank. I've seen this three times now. But I keep my Julies in species only tanks. Not likely to work in your tank if you remove the second pile of rocks and replace them with shells.

Patience is key. It takes some effort. Be flexible and creative. Fish have different personalities even within species; so a sure-fire method is just a place to start, not a guarantee. :) What works for the folks in the links above, or for me, or anyone else may not be the exact path your fish take. Be open to changing plans and enjoy the process. IME, it's worth it. Having a spawning pair and a couple generations of fry interacting makes for a really enjoyable tank. Beautiful fish with plenty of character and interest to reward your time.


Hey there

Thats a great piece of advice, thanks and yeah i worked out that it would be nice to have another pile if rocks for any rejected but as you see i git shellies on that side so in hindsight a bigger tank if i wanted the 2 species, it is intereting niw rather than stressful ! Ha as im down to 3, the 2 that are bonding are like testing each other exactly as you put it but are bonding so i will remove the third due to size of tsnk and take to my lfs, its quite amazing how effectively defensive the shellies are to the julis if they get to close, i think at last i msy be a little hooked on cichlids amd can see future larger tanks appearing, if i can find space, thanks all for the good advice, big learning curve

Cheers
John arnold
 
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:58 pm
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Re: Golden julis

Postby Samadhikash » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:04 am

What shell dweller did you add?
Samadhikash
 
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:41 am
Location: Missouri, US

Re: Golden julis

Postby John arnold » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:28 pm

Samadhikash wrote:What shell dweller did you add?

Sorry didnt see this, i added neolampralogus similis, there are only 2 would it upset things if i add 2 more shellies, im going to try catch the rejected juli tomorrow as the other 2 although not paired up they kinda may i think, i guess i have to wait longer, but no point in keepint the one that is hanging about up the glass 2 thirds of the way up vertical, am i on the right track now? I think so
John arnold
 
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:58 pm
Location: Somerset

Re: Golden julis

Postby Samadhikash » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:21 am

Is the Julie on the side of the tank being actively harassed? Or is it on the side because there is no other place for it since it's not allowed in the rock pile and the shellies chase it away? If the former, I'd remove. If the latter, I'd be tempted to leave it in the tank awhile to give the developing pair an "other" to shoo away. But being outcast to the wall of the tank is stressful and problematic long-term and that fish shouldn't be left indefinitely.

Also, Julie pairs don't necessarily swim together side by side all the time. The dominant fish (in the smaller Julies like ornatus and transcriptus the larger dominant fish is generally the male) will often kind of herd the female around where he wants her or chase her into the rock pile. It's not aggressive chasing and bullying as much as a play of dominance and submission. And, being secretive cave spawners, you will likely have no idea they have spawned until you see tiny fry on the rocks.

The shellies are territorial too and as you noticed will defend their space with determination. And this will be against the Julies as well as against other shellies they don't want in their space. You definitely don't want a second species of shellie. If you add more similis, you will need to ensure there are enough shells and space for multiple males to claim territory. This is often more space than folks expect from such a small fish. Too many males in too small a space without enough shells is a recipe for conflict. If you have reason to believe you have a male and female similis already, you'll end up with plenty of similis in short order.

Long-term, you'll have shellies increasing in number and needing more space and Julies doing the same--resulting in inevitable clashes. The breeders will be constantly pushing aging juveniles to the outer borders of the territory. Being limited by tank size, you will need to intervene and reduce the numbers of both. The combo of shellies and Julies is popular to try, and some folks are more successful than others even with similar set-ups. But tank size and set-up and the fish themselves make a difference.

Since you have the smaller/quarantine tank up and running, you have a bit of freedom to experiment and remove fish on-the-fly if things go sideways. Again, stay flexible and adaptable. Combining Tanganyikans isn't necessarily a set it and forget it proposition especially when you have active spawners of multiple species. Think territory, territory, territory. Everyone wants it; and without enough you get stress and conflict.
Samadhikash
 
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:41 am
Location: Missouri, US

Re: Golden julis

Postby John arnold » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:52 pm

Samadhikash wrote:When I first got into Julies, I found the breeding notes here https://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/vie ... p?t=347649 and here https://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=422 helpful.

One thing that stands out in both is the idea that pair formation is encouraged or enhanced by a joint defense of breeding territory. Whether the two are working to kick out conspecifics or others in a community tank/introduced targets it seems to me the process is the same.

Second, pairing isn't necessarily immediate and pretty. This isn't a Disney romance. Instead you'll often get bickering, nasty attitude, and general conflict until a pair has bonded. And for sure, letting them choose who to bond with is less demanding than trying to work out an arranged marriage. Conflict between two Julies doesn't mean they won't eventually bond and spawn. And there is some suggestion they enjoy a kind of testing phase where they determine if a potential mate is up to the rigors of the romance. :) Point is, don't separate too early or at the first sign of antagonism. Clearly you don't want incompatible fish to be locked in a death match and fish hiding in top corners or struggling to disappear behind a heater may be signs of a step too far, so monitor closely but give them a chance to be rambunctious.

I have found that two rock piles--one on each side of the tank--is helpful. Use a few rocks, flower pot shards, coconut hides, whatever gives them a place to hide. This helps to prevent rejected fish from trying to seek comfort in a rock pile claimed by a dominant fish. It also helps to net rejected fish. It gives them a place to dive for cover separate from the dominants and you can put in a tank divider, remove the rocks, and grab the fish while the pair is comfortably on the other side in their choosen space. This takes some patience and close observation so you know who you want to net, but if you watch purposefully I have found you can tell six fish apart by their markings. The downside is that the pair may decide your temporary hiding place is better than the pile you intend for them. Just be flexible here. Whatever place they choose for themselves is the one most likely to make them happy and spawn--at least that's the way I look at it.

I have not tried starting with adults. But my transcriptus juveniles have been very consistent in working themselves down to three fish. I get a pair, and one fish that is allowed to stay in the opposite rock pile. The pair is not aggressive toward the third fish, share space during feeding, but otherwise shoo it to its own side of the tank. I've seen this three times now. But I keep my Julies in species only tanks. Not likely to work in your tank if you remove the second pile of rocks and replace them with shells.

Patience is key. It takes some effort. Be flexible and creative. Fish have different personalities even within species; so a sure-fire method is just a place to start, not a guarantee. :) What works for the folks in the links above, or for me, or anyone else may not be the exact path your fish take. Be open to changing plans and enjoy the process. IME, it's worth it. Having a spawning pair and a couple generations of fry interacting makes for a really enjoyable tank. Beautiful fish with plenty of character and interest to reward your time.


Yeah i was going to leave it a bit longer, good idea, i think im getting the hang of it better now, i been thinking along lines of what you said and as the rejected juli does not look beat up i. Leaving a little longer, soon as he loses colour ill remove him, dont think i have enough room for more shellies now i think of it as the 2 there seem like they need about 8x8 inche territory and there not really much more for another, darn i need bigger tank
Thanks man
John arnold
 
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:58 pm
Location: Somerset

Re: Golden julis

Postby wryan » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:53 pm

John arnold wrote:Yeah i was going to leave it a bit longer, good idea, i think im getting the hang of it better now, i been thinking along lines of what you said and as the rejected juli does not look beat up i. Leaving a little longer, soon as he loses colour ill remove him, dont think i have enough room for more shellies now i think of it as the 2 there seem like they need about 8x8 inche territory and there not really much more for another, darn i need bigger tank ...

Think of it not as a problem, but rather an opportunity ... :D
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wryan
 
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:22 pm
Location: Northeast Ohio

Re: Golden julis

Postby John arnold » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:37 pm

wryan wrote:
John arnold wrote:Yeah i was going to leave it a bit longer, good idea, i think im getting the hang of it better now, i been thinking along lines of what you said and as the rejected juli does not look beat up i. Leaving a little longer, soon as he loses colour ill remove him, dont think i have enough room for more shellies now i think of it as the 2 there seem like they need about 8x8 inche territory and there not really much more for another, darn i need bigger tank ...

Think of it not as a problem, but rather an opportunity ... :D


Yeah man for sure hehe
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Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:58 pm
Location: Somerset

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