Lake Tanganyika Species • When to strip gobies?

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When to strip gobies?

Postby rogersb » Fri May 09, 2008 1:21 pm

I have been keeping tangs for a couple years now but never had any success with breeding because they have all been too young until recently. My spathodus began displaying last week and on sunday, the fourth, my female was holding. I want to strip her and was thinking about waiting until the 18th. This should be about the time she passes the fry to the male. Will it hurt the fry if i strip them that early? Should I wait longer? I dont' want to let them spit in the tank because if my tropheus don't get the fry then my leleupi surely will. What do you guys think?
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Postby Darkside » Fri May 09, 2008 2:40 pm

You can strip them then, or you can wait and strip the male. Trust me my gobies manage to pass their eggs off in an aquarium full of comps and synodontis mulites, so the transition should be fine. I used to strip me female gobies about the 10-12 day mark and toss the fry in a tumbler I haven't lost one yet. Though now I prefer to strip the male at a later period, since my tumblers are full of other goodies. :fish:
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Postby Dave » Fri May 09, 2008 4:30 pm

Let the female pass the fry to the male. After the male has had them for 10 days you can strip with no issues. IME I would wait for the male to start chasing the female in an attempt to give the fry back again. At this point I would strip and the fry were always fully developed.
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Postby triscuit » Fri May 09, 2008 5:53 pm

I always strip my Eretmodus males because the females are stressed already (egg production, attention from the male, etc). It allows the fry to fully develop, so they are hardier and ready to transition to food. My males eat during holding, so I think the fry get used to nibbling on fish food prior to release. Other fry (cyps, eg) seem to take a day or two to realize that crushed NLS grow is edible.
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Postby rogersb » Sat May 10, 2008 9:52 am

Sounds like a plan, I'll strip the male a little later, let the female have a break. Thanks.
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Postby 24Tropheus » Sat May 10, 2008 10:59 am

Hate to be an anti stripping pain but why not put the male in a tank on his own with lots of cover for the released fry?
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Postby Dave » Sat May 10, 2008 2:42 pm

24Tropheus wrote:Hate to be an anti stripping pain but why not put the male in a tank on his own with lots of cover for the released fry?

I personally would not split up a mated pair of gobies. Besides, the stripping is not difficult.
Come join us at the Madison Area Aquatic Hobbyists (MAAH) meeting. http://madisonaquatichobby.com/
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Postby 24Tropheus » Sat May 10, 2008 3:39 pm

It is I think not the difficulty of stripping the male thats the prob. (well better than stripping the female for sure) Happy that it is easy to do. Its also easy to re introduce a single male to females for sure after stripping. The prob with stripping these guys is not with how well you will do with the adults but with how well the young will do with the next guy, when they come to try and breed them.
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Postby Dave » Sat May 10, 2008 7:12 pm

24Tropheus wrote:The prob with stripping these guys is not with how well you will do with the adults but with how well the young will do with the next guy, when they come to try and breed them.

There is absolutely no evidence that stripping has any impact on future breeding. I have heard a few stories, but they were always second or third hand, and had no way to be verified. Besides, we are talking about stripping fully formed fry.
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Postby triscuit » Sat May 10, 2008 9:16 pm

Male gobies forget their paternity quickly: I've seen my males chase newly released fry when I let them be. Another hobbyist separated the male and within a two hour period the male spit... and then ate all the fry.
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Postby 24Tropheus » Sun May 11, 2008 5:04 am

"There is absolutely no evidence that stripping has any impact on future breeding. I have heard a few stories, but they were always second or third hand, and had no way to be verified. Besides, we are talking about stripping fully formed fry."

Try this?
http://www.behav.org/IEC/default.php?pr ... num&id=569
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Postby 24Tropheus » Sun May 11, 2008 6:32 am

Loss of imprinting is immediate I think.
Loss of other behavior would take generations to show as the none selected for genes are lost.
No wonder no one has proved it either way? :(
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Postby Dave » Sun May 11, 2008 11:47 am

Nice abstract for a poster, which is of course not yet peer reviewed. In addition, it is a test for cross rearing, not stripping fully formed fry. I would agree that cross rearing could have an impact on mate selection. This would imply that it was not the stripping, but the rearing that resulted in the change in preference. In addition, we are talking about biparental mouthbrooders, which may have a different "imprinting" than maternal mouthbrooders.

Loss of imprinting may or may not be immediate, I do not believe that has been established in the case of stripping either. Again, we are talking about stripping fry that have been reared by the female and then passed to the father for another 10 days, not tumbling eggs. This generally results in ~20 days of mouth brooding. Until a time point study of stripping is done, it is all conjecture and anecdotal evidence.
Come join us at the Madison Area Aquatic Hobbyists (MAAH) meeting. http://madisonaquatichobby.com/
Current project: spawning Paretroplus kieneri
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Postby 24Tropheus » Sun May 11, 2008 3:42 pm

True but if cross rearing has an impact on mate selection, imprinting must be happening?
We have no idea of when imprinting happens though.
As for peer review, its been going on so far for a year or so.
The study is already quoted as a reference in other papers.
Thats how I stumbled on it. Before it was published.

Please keep in mind there is no way of proving Angel fish loss of fry care generation on generation but we can see the results of generations of rearing of eggs and fry away from the adults?

"study of stripping is done, it is all conjecture and anecdotal evidence."
Study is well advanced on this I hear. Results though will prob not be published.
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Postby triscuit » Sun May 11, 2008 9:00 pm

Heck, I've been working on my current research for two years, have talked at professional conferences and also have a prize winning poster on the subject: but it will not yet pass peer review. :? Research is a messy, unpredictable, time-consuming beast that can turn sour in an instant. So, a promising start is grand, but the peer review process is there for a reason... too bad that pharmaceutical companies have bypassed it! :o :roll:

Back to fish: I have generations of cyp and goby fry that were stripped at 21 days whom are breeding and releasing in mine and other hobbyists' tanks. Short term effects are not evident. My method of stripping does not involve any contact with the fry: they see an open mouth and they run for it. It's pretty hard to get them out if they don't want to come. It is impossible to comprehend what if any imprinting affects this would have. So, as far as the fry are concerned, mom has finally opened the door for them. My un-researched gut instinct is that the fry do register the difference.
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