Lake Tanganyika Species • Is buying Wild caught worth the extra money????

Discussion regarding only Lake Tanganyika species.

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Postby lloyd » Wed May 07, 2008 9:23 am

[quote="LED"]IME and IMO it depends on the fish. One fish type that I do recommend buying Wild are Comps and Calvus because it takes FOREVER to grow a pair out to breeding size. Otherwise with a majority of other fish I like going F1 or F2 and growing them out myself. :)[/quote]

and where will your grandchildren source comps or calvus?
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Postby mollysgood » Wed May 07, 2008 9:44 am

I'm glad I brought this question up. It's great to here everyones experiences with wild caught behavior vs. tank raised behavior. That's one aspect I overlooked, makes sense that wild caught would be more aggressive to other tank mates & show better parental care. I'd imagine that I'd be more aggressive also if I went from an open lake to a wee little tank in comparison. I'm surprised more wild caught fish aren't suicidal. :lol:
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Postby Darkside » Wed May 07, 2008 10:10 am

lloyd wrote:darkside: i believe your logic exposes the troubling demand this hobby has for wild caught sources. a breeder is not really being responsible, until he has construed a method of self sufficiency for his livestock. and so long as we continue to dump our fish into TR buckets, consumers will never value them.
species cypho. 'burundi' is a great example, of how we managed to bugger up a perfectly good variant. what was once a grand fish, just a few years ago, is already assumed a mutt in the hobby. if your only foreseeable option for breeder stock, is to pull from a lake, then you are sadly missing my point. IMHO.


There isn't anything wrong with my logic. There is no reason to genetically track fish beyond F2 as the traits will be fairly homogeneous. There are very few people who have the means (and almost none who have the inspiration) to line breed successive generations beyond the F2. The demand from the general public to secure quality fish isn't there, so large scale breeding operations won't pedigree their fish. Unfortunately your arguments about fish sources misses my point entirely unless you can demonstrate to me a reason (genetically) to track homogeneous fish through successive generations.
I'll address your concerns anyway, as for pulling from the Lake (we'll use your Front example), it is expensive, but its not like collecting for the aquarium hobby has that much of an impact on the fish population. In fact the amount of fish pulled from the lake with an aquarium as a destination is minuscule compared to the amount of fish harvested for food. There are beaches in Tanganyika right now that have more that $100,000 worth of cichlids spread out on the beach drying for local consumption. I realize this isn't your point but we should always evaluate the environmental impact of fish collection on a case by case basis, as the cichlids of lake Tanganyika are a far different case than say the "galaxy rasbora".
As for tank raised fish, there is nothing wrong with fish that don't have a generation label on them. How do you plan on making consumers value fish that have these generation labels and pedigrees? There simply isn't a demand for this from the average hobbyist so there is no reason to start a specialized supply. Not only that, but the general public do not have the tools to equip themselves with an understanding of the 'genetic' labeling of fish. On average how are people going to respond to a $20 fish that's labeled "F3 back-crossed to F1, Burundi"? People don't even understand some of the less technical language used in genetics (For an example: Number6's frustration at misunderstood terminology can be seen here https://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... 6&start=15 ). If there is confusion about the definition of a hybrid, then there is no point in labeling fish beyond what is now common (F2). Your intentions are noble, but at this point in time I can't see any reason to construct pedigrees beyond personal interest and experiments with line breeding.
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Postby mollysgood » Wed May 07, 2008 10:35 am

I have another question that is related to this topic of discussion. Does anyone know what percent of Wild caught fish are actually wild caught vs being bread and raised using the lake water. I've only herd that some fish that are sold as wild caught are raised using the lake water but are not subjected to the natural selection of growing up in the lake. Is there any truth to this practice?
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Postby Longstocking » Wed May 07, 2008 10:39 am

That question would best be answered by someone that has been to the lake.... Some day I'll get there !! :?

BUT... when I look at lists the exporters usually say they are bred lake side. Keep in mind.. most of the exporters don't have the supplies to breed a large amount of fish lake side. I have heard of a few fish that this is the case though... due to low numbers in the lake but a high demand. Or the fish is located far from their location so it is more economical to breed the fish lake side than to use the gas ( one of their biggest expenses ) to get their by boat.

Make sense ?? Of course this is what I have heard.... so no actual fact :fish:
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Postby mollysgood » Wed May 07, 2008 10:53 am

Someday I'll make it there as well. I've been scuba diving all my life growing up in Florida. Can't wait to get there!!! or maybe I'll make a tank big enough to fill my basement & then I could scuba dive with my fish. lol

:dancing:
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Postby fiupntballr » Wed May 07, 2008 11:04 am

On the tracking past F2 Darkside is totally correct unless you are working on developing lines of fish.
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Postby wmayes » Wed May 07, 2008 12:03 pm

lloyd - I think darksider means that the F2 is the last useful LABEL... He never said that the fish are useless themselves as what seems to be your assumption.
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Postby frschul » Wed May 07, 2008 12:43 pm

How do you know how many generations a line of fish has been bred for ? Some breeders, breed fish others let what ever happens in a tank happens.... Take for instant a tank of fancy show guppies, if you were to leave these fish in a tank for a 18 months, fed them well , did water changes and excellent maintenance at the end of a year and a half all of the offspring would look like absolute junk.... This is because in the small environment anything goes..... But if you had an excellent selective breeding program.... and you established a line breeding program ... then I don't have a problem getting fish from you.... Brother to Sister crosses catches up to you much sooner than later.... any way don't get me started about genetics/breeding ..... and besides I like to study the wild fish vs the tank raised..... for example I had #%$& breeding JULIDOCHROMIS MARLERI , the tank raised version no problem.... I like the challenge of wild fish.
Learning means, never stop listening

Frank

WWW.PETROCHROMISMAN.COM
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Postby lloyd » Wed May 07, 2008 3:39 pm

[quote="wmayes"]lloyd - I think darksider means that the F2 is the last useful LABEL... He never said that the fish are useless themselves as what seems to be your assumption.[/quote]

yes, i both understood, and agree, with darkside's remark. what i find discouraging, and what i feel should embarrass the hobby, is the fact that tags like F2 and TR have become synonymous with poor quality, risks of cross breeding, and decreased dollar values. the embarrassment IS the label. or better yet, the lack of respect for it within the hobby. unfortunately, the fish go with the label, so they themselves then become useless. 99.9% of all LFS stock fall into this category, which just leads back to continued demand for w.c., so we can reassure ourselves we are not buying junk. IMHO, we waste a lot of fish.
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Postby fiupntballr » Wed May 07, 2008 5:02 pm

I have to disagree with that lloyd. I buy TR fish (cichlids in particular) and find many of them very high quality.

If someone makes that general assumption, that tank raised fish are of inferior quality past F2, then I believe they are just misinformed.
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Postby 24Tropheus » Wed May 07, 2008 5:55 pm

I know this goes against an article written on the subject by one of the Mods here but Tang Lakeside breeding is not a huge enterprise and its done in only a few places. Burundi is the place it is done on a largish scale. Its an easy mistake to make as other collectors can have huge pools of wild collected cichlids and waiting for order which look like breeding pools.
No one has yet mentioned the other difference between WC and none WC. WC are adapted to the wild environment. This can mean the feeding adaptions are more pronounced. Teeth worn and replaced by younger teeth used for rock scraping, jaw muscles less atrified, lips bigger from abrasion from feeding on rocks. They are also size for size far older than the tank or pond raised equivolent. Preditory fish far more preditory.

Also please do not listen to shops who tell you they are quarantined by the exporter. They may be a bit or maybe put on the next flight. Shops should quarantine and treat WC for common wild ailments like parasites for two or three weeks before sale. Good ones will show you where and how they do this.
Owning and running a shop or mail order business does not mean they know how to treat WC fish, so be careful where you get them from.

Aggression is not always greatest in WC.
Some, at least, are more mellow. :thumb:

I hate to say it but the hobby bred fish are often the poorest ones. Professionally bred fish can be lousy too. Its partly about genetic diversity but also how it is done.

Funny, I found keeping and breeding the stuff from the local fish shops far more challenging than WC. :D

This may shock some of you but WC here in the UK, if you know were to look, are cheaper than tank raised in many cases.
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Postby Darkside » Wed May 07, 2008 6:41 pm

The original question stemmed from the genetic similarities of WC fish vs those fish that are tank raised. Environmental pressures influencing fish phenotypes is an entirely new argument.
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Postby 24Tropheus » Wed May 07, 2008 7:06 pm

Question was about whether WC are worth the extra money I thought?
So any difference is relevant?
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Postby lloyd » Wed May 07, 2008 9:05 pm

[quote="Darkside" How do you plan on making consumers value fish that have these generation labels and pedigrees? There simply isn't a demand for this from the average hobbyist so there is no reason to start a specialized supply.[/quote]

line breeders get away with it. :x :lol: names like Wayne Ng and Jack Wattley come to mind as good examples. their fish are constantly in demand and they consistently sell above market averages.
so...getting back to the original Q about wild fish values: if the species is abundant, then unless the wild fish exhibits a personality, or physical trait, that cannot be replicated in TR production, it's value should not likely be more than any other. some common denominators that help to elevate value? rarity, famous name association, and of course, the ultimate combo...rarity with famous name association. :fish:
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