General African Cichlid Discussion • New hybrid cichlid??

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New hybrid cichlid??

Postby jdamon » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:24 pm

I am wondering if I stumbled upon a new species? I have a mostly Tanganika tank with some fairly aggresive fish, and as a strategy to disperse the aggression in the tank I put in a couple Malawi females that I got from a friend. What ended up was a mating between a Pundamilia Nyerei (python Island) male and a Copadichromis Azureus female. One of the babies has gotten pretty big and looks awesome! (I will put up a picture soon) Has anyone else seen this kind of interbreeding before? I have no idea if they are sterile either, like a parot fish, but I do have two of them, and the mom and dad, so maybe time will tell? The spawn looks really cool, I hope they are able to reproduce!
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Re: New hybrid cichlid??

Postby Number6 » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:18 pm

jdamon wrote:I am wondering if I stumbled upon a new species?
it is not, nor ever will be, a new species. It is just a mutt now, and if you linebred for many generations to arrive at a true breeding population, you could call it a new breed, but never species.

jdamon wrote:Has anyone else seen this kind of interbreeding before?
frequently.

jdamon wrote:I I have no idea if they are sterile either
likely fertile as these cichlids are younger species... still quite closely related.

Why are you so excited about mutts? just curious... :)
My WC cichlids are gonna be caught on rod n reel!
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Postby jdamon » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:24 pm

because its sweet looking! And I will settle for a new hybrid.... When I asked if anyone had seen this before, I was talking about these two specific genus. As a side note, isn't the definition of species such that one can only produce viable offspring with another of the same species?

I can't figure out how to post a picture within the thread... maybe that is discouraged. I will have to post them on some other site and insert a link? That may take a little longer....[/img]
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Postby Number6 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:41 am

jdamon wrote:because its sweet looking!

Ah, gotcha. 1st generation hybrids are not always very stable, so fry may not be as "sweet" looking. They may even look just like a Copadichromis... be prepared to kill a large number of fish as you try to stabilize this new "breed".

jdamon wrote:I was talking about these two specific genus.
I have seen Pundamilia /Copadichromis crosses.

jdamon wrote:As a side note, isn't the definition of species such that one can only produce viable offspring with another of the same species?
No, not at all. Even if you find this sort of error in print, be assured that it is a very common and basic misunderstanding. It is a basic prerequisite to be a single species that a cross within the group produces viable offspring, but it is not correct to reverse that and say that if fertile offspring can be produced that they must have been a single species to begin or be some sort of new species.

jdamon wrote:I can't figure out how to post a picture within the thread... maybe that is discouraged. I will have to post them on some other site and insert a link? That may take a little longer....[/img]
Yes, that is how you must post pictures.

Hope that all helps. :thumb:
My WC cichlids are gonna be caught on rod n reel!
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Postby shaguars7 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:59 pm

well really any 2 mouthbrooding cichlid cold hybridize. So i doubt there are anything that kept in the same tank in your type of environment would not cross.
alot of tanks..lol
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Postby cjacob316 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:35 pm

I have a mostly Tanganika tank with some fairly aggresive fish, and as a strategy to disperse the aggression in the tank I put in a couple Malawi females


how did you end up with a victorian male? was it part of your "mostly tanganyikan"?
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Postby jdamon » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:54 pm

The only fish in the tank that are not tanganikan are the male python island and female chrysonatus that happen to be the focus of this thread.... but I assure you the rest of the tank inhabitants are from lake tanganika! I have an Mpimbwe Frontosa, a big Julie, a whole bunch of shell dwellers, a calvus, a gobie, and [/url]an angelicus synodontis :)

Finally I posted the pictures of this hybrid. I am excited b/c he seems to be green in the middle with red and blue and yellow! He is still immature and has his dad to compete with, so I assume he will look even better in time, but you can see the potential.

[url=http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/jdamon77/Tank%20pics/]

I will try post the rest of the tank as well, I have some nice shots.
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Postby cjacob316 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:12 pm

well you said mostly tangs, and that you added malawi females, i'm trying to figure out if you think the Nyerei was from lake tanganyika or malawi, if you thought he was actually a she, or if you actually knew he was a vic, and just never stated it
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Postby wadman » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:34 pm

jdamon wrote:
I will try post the rest of the tank as well, I have some nice shots.


i can't even see the first pic you put up.
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Postby cjacob316 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:41 pm

here is the fixed link

http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/jdamon77/Tank%20pics

and personally i think it looks like a sp. 44 with bad genes
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Postby jdamon » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:09 pm

I always knew it was a victorian, and the malawi females were freebies from my friend who was overhauling his tank. You guys are pretty harsh, honestly. I've been at this a long time, and I am not out to prove anything, just share what I thought was an interesting unintentional offspring. What is a sp44?
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Postby jdamon » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:19 pm

I see the sp44, its close, but I think my will look more green and blue.
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Postby ashilli48 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:31 pm

jdamon wrote:I always knew it was a victorian, and the malawi females were freebies from my friend who was overhauling his tank. You guys are pretty harsh, honestly. I've been at this a long time, and I am not out to prove anything, just share what I thought was an interesting unintentional offspring. What is a sp44?



Trust me, neither one of these members are being remotely harsh. I have seen some rude behavior when it comes to hybrids. Every single member of this forum is passionate about cichlids. Especially the hot button topic of hybrids. Hybridized fish water down the hobby and at the same time pose a risk, however negligible in the eyes of the breeder, to the species themselves.

Fish keepers need to keep in mind the concept of the power of one vote. Most voters do not believe that they can make an impact, not realizing what one single vote represents, not seeing the bigger picture. If we do not all, as fishkeepers, attempt to avoid cross breeding, then together we will bring down the hobby. Newcomers will be purchasing fish from stores, not knowing what they truly have, because what they truly have is some type of mutt.

This all sounds far fetched I know but for every LFS that strictly purchases stock from reputable breeders there is one that will gladly take in your home breed fish, sometimes knowing what they have and not caring and sometimes not having a clue. All it takes is a few "outlets" i.e. LFS, farms and online breeders to get careless or greedy and we will see a nose dive in this hobby with nothing but "dayglo" neons, and parrots, and flowerhorns, and tattoed fish, etc. to purchase.

Your initial statement had a hint of zeal in it that you had done something great that may create an opportunity to, at the very least, score some trade-in credit at the LFS. You did not say that but your excitement ellicited concern.

The members here care enough about fish and the hobby to shoot straight with everyone on here. Take the constructive criticism and grow as a fish keeper. and enjoy your hybrids, but by all means do not let them out of the house or distribution into commerce, clubs or local waterways.
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Postby jdamon » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:25 am

I had no idea this was such a sensitive subject... I don't have any intention of selling them, just thought it looked cool, and could be a new fish (but apparently not).

ashilli48, are you saying that mutts don't make good pets? How do you control interbreeding in the wild (say two different malawi peacocks)? And who is to say how all these "different species" got here in the first place? I think most experienced cichlid keepers can tell (or look up) what kind of fish they may see in a pet store. And if it looks weird, it probably is. I think your statement of breeding hybrids as watering down the hobby is a little strong. Its not constructive criticism, its your opinion. If I was proposing to put these babies back into lake tanganika or victoria, then you could have a problem.
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Postby cjacob316 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:33 am

sorry i was just saying you never mentioned vics in your post, i was making sure you knew you had a vic there :)
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