Central American Cichlids • Marble Convicts

Discussion regarding only Central American Cichlid species. (Guapotes, Jack Dempseys, Red Devils, Firemouths, Convicts, Texas Cichlids, etc.)

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Postby Frameshift » Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:28 am

con-man-dan wrote:i recently crossed a PF and GM and got nothing but grey juvi's! i had moved most of them to a seperate tank, the culls were eaten, and 3 somehow were left in the parents tank. I'm thinking about crossing what appears to be a lovely male with his momma to see what happens now that he'll have the pink gene, and the fry would have 2x pink gene, right?


You got all grey because your "GM" was homozygous for the "grey" gene. We'll call that AA. You're pink female is homozygous for the pink gene. aa for short. So all your fry would be grey, but carry the recessive pink trait (100% Aa).

If you were to then cross the "new" grey male (Aa) with his pink (aa) mother you'd get 50% pink (aa) and 50% grey (Aa) but carrying the recessive trait (heterozygous).

ohcustoms, I don't think it will be possible to get 100% marble cons, because with the "marble" cons you're not just looking at one allele and, using probability, there is a pretty high chance in a spawn of hundred to get "marbles" that are all grey or all pink.

We've been selecting animals for certain colors for hundreds, if not thousands of years. If you just search around you'll find lots of articles on coat coloration. Here a a couple that deal with cats. Just imagine it's a fish instead.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/holl ... colort.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/holl ... incomplete dominant
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Postby ohcustoms » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:34 am

con-man-dan wrote:I wouldnt dare breed F0's with anything but F0's, plain and simple. However, convicts are convicts, and I'll likely have MANY to deal with, so why not see what happens with some of their kids breeding into a domestic line? Never know whats gonna happen. Its all just for fun anyways!

Has anyone ever seen true albino convicts?


You do have a point there, you never know what's going to poop out ::) I guess it couldn't hurt to try a few?

I've never seen a "True" albino con. I've never heard of anyone seeing one either. They could exist, you never know.

JAmie
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Postby con-man-dan » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:36 am

I was thinking about this the other day. You see albino EVERYTHING from Malawi, and you see tons of albino's in lots of other fish. But honestly, outside of albino mixteco's and aureus, who else has seen an albino ANYTHING from CA??
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Postby the_skdster » Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:31 pm

Hmm.
Good read.
Now I can try mixing my two 4" male & female with other con variants and see what I get.
Fun easy lifetime project. :D
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Postby TheFishGuy » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:09 pm

I believe, and don't quote me on this, that albinoism is a result of inbreeding??? That might only be mammals though???

I find that you get more marbles if you breed a marble with a grey convict possesing the reccessive pink gene.... Food for thought :wink: Done it many times... Well not me, but my fish have :lol:
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Postby con-man-dan » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:13 pm

I could be wrong, but I think albinism is just a naturally occuring recessive gene that seriously has to be line bred in fish to obtain true spawning offspring
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Postby the_skdster » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:33 pm

With all the selective con breeding going on, you'd think someone would have goten a True albino con by now. :)
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Postby Ramirezi Altispinosis » Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:53 am

Huh, that would look awesome

Anyway, from the pink male with mixed parents, and the straight black female, I now have about 60 fry swimming around, though they are too small to see much of anything except the very beginning of some stripes. Looks like I may have a mixed batch. Maybe since the father had a black gene, these guys will have the beginning of some blotches? Probably not, but I hope so. I would love to breed these guys for a while untill I get a marble, then cross him back to his mother.

Update later :)
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Postby Faustie_Mo » Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:20 am

although i am relatively new to these fish, I currently have a nice spawn from two marbled cons. I also happen to be studying genetics in high school biology. here is what I am applying to my knowledge:

all cons carry two alleles for every gene, in this case the alleles are striped or pink. Let's consider SS to be a striped con (homozygous dominant, stripes being the dominant allele) and ss to be a pink con (homozygous recessive, pink being the recessive allele). According to simple rules in genetics, the dominant allele always masks the recessive. Therefore a con with the genotype Ss will be striped, though still carrying the recessive trait.

Then along comes the marbled convict. In this case it seems to me codominance is in effect. This is when both alleles are expressed, regardless of a dominant allele. Therefore a marbled convict contains S and s. The question the becomes: what will my spawn between two marbles consist of? here is a punnet square in which both parents are heterozygous (Ss):

S s

S SS Ss

s Ss ss



As a result, the possible genotypes of the offspring are SS (homozygous dominant, striped), Ss (heterozygous, marbled), and ss (homozygous recessive, pink). 25% will be striped, 50% marbled, and 25% will be pink.


NOTE: i have no knowledge of the genetics of convict cichlids! I'm just trying to apply my school to my tank. This is my prediction for my spawn. Does anybody have legitimate information?
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Postby Frameshift » Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:27 am

That's close...

all cons carry two alleles for every gene, in this case the alleles are striped or pink


The first part is true, but the alleles don't just cover striped or pink. "S" or striped is the most common allele, but there are probably several other "s" alleles that are types of color other than the pink form, though the pink is the most common.

Color is a very interesting thing to work with in genetics, because there are many ways to alter genetically. You can have mutations that stop color production, some that don't allow for the color to be inserted in the skin, etc. I've worked with fruit flies that had white, brick red, or bright red eyes. Ended up that the white eyes had a mutation that stopped the insertion of the colors into the eye (colors were made), brick color was the "wild type", and the bright red eye mutation just stopped the brown pigment from being produced. It gets complex. That's my derail.

Then along comes the marbled convict. In this case it seems to me codominance is in effect. This is when both alleles are expressed, regardless of a dominant allele. Therefore a marbled convict contains S and s. The question the becomes: what will my spawn between two marbles consist of? here is a punnet square in which both parents are heterozygous (Ss):


Your logic there is incorrect. Ss is just heterozygous. A striped convict carrying the pink gene. As you said (and I said earlier) it is codominance or incomplete dominance that makes the marble appearence. This is much more involved than just "Ss". Your Punnit Square is spot on for two striped convicts carring the pink gene.

Technically, you should get all marbled convicts from two marbled parents. Due to probablity of recieving 100% patches (striped) or no colored patches (pink) though, odds are you'll end up with a couple striped and a couple pink.

If you have anymore questions just ask.
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Postby Faustie_Mo » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:01 pm

cool, thanks. we'll have to wait for these eggs to hatch
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Postby TheFishGuy » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:36 pm

:lol: Sorry, don't mean to laugh. I'm only laughing because I'm no expert on genes... BUT, I have messed around in the convict game and have found that the highest yield of marble cons comes from breeding a female marble to a male grey that has the pink gene. The other way around (male marble/ female grey with pink gene) doesn't yeild as many. In both cases all three were present in the fry. Do you know how hard it is to keep tons of fry around forever?! :lol:
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Postby berknuts » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:23 pm

I was in the local petland discount today and couldnt help but check out the CA they have... lo and behold what do they have.... Grey striped convicts DEFINITELY carrying the marble gene. There are male and females both with the marbled splotches. I am SOOO tempted to pick up a pair and try breeding them in my 10g hospital tank. i looked at their pink tank, and some have spectacular color, but none with marble splotches. Im also thinking about getting a pair of each and following the lines and starting a whole breeding, but thats timely and I'd have to give up my HRP and mixteco plan for my 55. darn i cant make up my mind. Any input?
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Postby 90cat » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:23 am

Frameshift wrote:
con-man-dan wrote:i recently crossed a PF and GM and got nothing but grey juvi's! i had moved most of them to a seperate tank, the culls were eaten, and 3 somehow were left in the parents tank. I'm thinking about crossing what appears to be a lovely male with his momma to see what happens now that he'll have the pink gene, and the fry would have 2x pink gene, right?


You got all grey because your "GM" was homozygous for the "grey" gene. We'll call that AA. You're pink female is homozygous for the pink gene. aa for short. So all your fry would be grey, but carry the recessive pink trait (100% Aa).

If you were to then cross the "new" grey male (Aa) with his pink (aa) mother you'd get 50% pink (aa) and 50% grey (Aa) but carrying the recessive trait (heterozygous).

ohcustoms, I don't think it will be possible to get 100% marble cons, because with the "marble" cons you're not just looking at one allele and, using probability, there is a pretty high chance in a spawn of hundred to get "marbles" that are all grey or all pink.

We've been selecting animals for certain colors for hundreds, if not thousands of years. If you just search around you'll find lots of articles on coat coloration. Here a a couple that deal with cats. Just imagine it's a fish instead.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/holl ... colort.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/holl ... incomplete dominant


Some one remembers Mendel from Biology :D the only way to test to see if the con in question carries the reccesive gene is to test cross it with a known carrier of the reccesive gene then you will come out with some fry that are not only carriers of the reccesive trait but also express it (aa)!
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Postby Nos » Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:58 am

i have 2 badass marble convict females. who wants to buy them to breed :P
these are the pictures i have currently, but will post better pictures if you want.
first is the female marble, bad angle.
second is the second female marble breeding with my pink/jelly bean dwarf convict.
Image
Image
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