South American Cichlids • Green terrors (Rivulatus)

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Green terrors (Rivulatus)

Postby mstama » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:19 am

Hey everyone, i am new to this site. I have a breeding pair of rivulatus, the female is currently 'gravid'? And i think she is about to lay. Anyway i have a question

How long after they mate until they lay?

Oh and i am trying to figure out how to post up pictures, help would be great :) :fish:

p.s they arent very big yet.. any pictures of yours would be cool . :thumb:
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Postby Moody Fish » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:32 am

Hi, your rivulatus will lay eggs and the male will then fertilise the eggs and then around 4 day's later you will have wrigglers that will feed off of their yolk sak. I have kept Gold Saums for a while now, and currently have an unrelated group of six, that I am trying to pair off. As for posting pictures, get a photobucket account, upload your pics and then paste the [IMG] code to post them on here.
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Postby Ronny_M » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:56 am

Hi,
here are some pics and a vid of my Rivulatus, not quite green terrors though.
They're silver saums (white edged)

I got these guys last Tuesday and by Friday they had bred. Now there are well over 100 free swimming fry.

Image
Image

Image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwDvSw6ETQI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1CmRIfyf-c&feature=channel

Cheers
Ronny
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Postby Blademan » Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:33 pm

Nice looking male. How big is he?
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Postby dwarfpike » Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:38 pm

That's a beauty of an Andinoacara sp. 'silversaum' Ronny_M!!! :thumb:
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Postby Ronny_M » Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:46 pm

Wow, thanks dwarfpike :D
Learn something new everyday.

I've been under the impression that it's a varient of Aquidens Rivulatus.

The male is only about 8cm and the female is around 5-6cm.

They've been doing a great job looking after the fry.

Of the hundred+ that were laid, only about 4 were infertile and all the fry still appear to be there.
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Postby PaulineMi » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:00 pm

I'm normally not a fan of nuchal humps but you have some beautiful fish!!
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Postby dwarfpike » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:26 pm

No worries. The genus for the blue acara group was finally described only last december, so Andinoacara hasn't really caught on yet.

While I was trying to avoid another huge debate about this group of fish (the green terrors), the A. rivulatus, A. stalsbergi (proposed name for sp. 'silbersaum'), and the gold/silver/red saum do seem to differant species. The question is now if the gold/silver/red saums are differant species, or region variants of the same species (though seperate from A. rivulatus and A. stalsbergi). I know a few Europeans believe A. rivulatus and the gold/silver/red saums to be the same fish, most concur with them being differant fish. A. rivulatus and A. stalsbergi look much closer/related than the remaining saums do to A. rivulatus.

Hope that wasn't confusing!!!
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Postby Chromedome52 » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:36 pm

There's a lot of debate over exactly which fish is the true rivulatus. The fish Ronnie M has is the one that Alf Stalsberg considers to be the real thing, which Americans call Silversaum. However, there is some belief that this fish and the Goldsaum are actually the same species, just different populations. Silver edged individuals have come out of spawns of Goldsaum from Ecuador. Goldsaum is also found in northern Peru, but those populations are reported to always be red/gold edged. The Goldsaum was identified as Andinoacara rivulatus by Kullander in 2003, though Stalsberg considers them an undescribed species.

The original Green Terror came from further south in Peru, and was originally mistaken for rivulatus because it was said to have come from the north, near Ecuador. However, unlike the two "Saum" species, which have shiny scales with black spots, it has different scales in a netlike pattern of black with shiny centers. It is known in Europe as the "Silbersaum", which some have confused with the fish Americans call "Silversaum". Both names have the same meaning, but are different fish. The original Peruvian Green Terror was just described, and is now Andinoacara stalsbergi, after Alf Stalsberg who collected specimens of all three forms from their natural habitats, helping to define their ranges.

I just noticed that Dwarfpike and I were writing at the same time! :lol: We differ slightly in that the describers of A. stalsbergi consider the Goldsaum to be rivulatus, but no one has compared the type specimens of that species with any of these fish. They did not mention, and apparently were not aware of, the silver edged Ecuadorian populations.
Last edited by Chromedome52 on Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Whenever something seems too good to be true I find it's best to shoot it, just in case. - Fiona Glenanne on Burn Notice
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Postby dwarfpike » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:44 pm

Chromedome52 - It also depends on whom you ask!! I know Alf believes the orignal Green Terror from the early seventies was his 'silbersaum' (aka the new A. Stalsbergi) but other old timers disagree, and say that the A. rivulatus Jeff Rapps has been getting in is the same fish they kept at that time and that Alf's was another, undescribed species. I wasn't around back then so I can't say for certain. I rather let those with the experience and/or the PhD's work it out. :lol:

Though, I have always been able to tell the differance between a silversaum and silbersaum, Alf's silbersaum has the same reverse scale pattern on their flanks that A. rivulatus has ... rather than the common pattern on the goldsaum that the silversaum shares. (note: using the old common name descriptions here for clarity).

I agree a lot of people in the states thought the silbersaum was just the german spelling of silversaum ... but they are completely differant after looking at Alf's website.

But then I didn't want to derail the OP's post by having yet another 'true green terror' debate. :D

Note: Ronny's appear to be the silversaum, not Alf's silbersaum.
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Postby Chromedome52 » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:57 pm

Problem is that the old pictures labeled "rivulatus" are fish from central Peru, and are stalsbergi. Wayne Leibel reported that the original importation of "Green Terror" came from central Peru, but was erroneously reported as the northern region that Goldsaum inhabits. The type location for rivulatus is in Ecuador; the range only goes into Peru if you consider Goldsaum to be that species. The describers of stalsbergi give the red edged fish as being rivulatus, based on two references.

And Jeff Rapps has had many mis-identified fish before, and likely will again. His pictures labeled rivulatus are stalsbergi from Peru. One of the pictures even says Peru. Location, location, location! :lol: :roll:
Whenever something seems too good to be true I find it's best to shoot it, just in case. - Fiona Glenanne on Burn Notice
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Postby dwarfpike » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:07 pm

Indeed. Quite the mess. I need to read the full paper on the new A. stalsbergi. I have the Andinoacara paper, but it didn't go into all of the undescribed species ... only 2 of them (and one of those was a blue acara species).

It was funny, but Wayne was one I was refering to when I mentioned some of the old timers. :lol: I have noticed that Rapps has had rivulatus from Ecuador and Peru before (Ecuador was several years ago, and come to think about it that was when I read both Wayne's article and Paul Loiselle's article about the 'true green terror') but the recent ones have been Peru.

Any importer is only as good with identification as the collector is it seems ... :lol:

So it would seem that A. stalsbergi is the southern most of the complex, then the unidentified silversaum, then the gold saum, and finally A. rivulatus to the north? With the red saum inbetween gold and A. rivulatus???

So confusing. I knew there would be headaches with this silly blue acara genus *grumbles*
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Postby Chromedome52 » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:21 pm

Almost right: stalsbergi is the southern most species, then Gold Saum in Peru and Ecuador, then silversaum - which Stalsberg considers to be the real rivulatus - in Ecuador only. There are no reticulate pattern Terrors from Ecuador according to Stalsberg, who did many collections and did not find any. Reports to the contrary are erroneous.

Wayne corrected himself some time ago in his TFH column; I would not hold my breath waiting for PVL to do so. This debate was covered quite thoroughly over at CRC forums some months ago.
Whenever something seems too good to be true I find it's best to shoot it, just in case. - Fiona Glenanne on Burn Notice
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Postby dwarfpike » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:27 pm

Chromedome52 - Do you know which TFH issue it is? I must have missed that one, else I would have snapped it up.

So if the gold/silver/red suam end up being the same fish as most people think they will, they will be A. rivulatus leaving us just the two species of Green Terrors (unless you count those dwarf GT's from the early 90's that haven't been seen since, and no they weren't those silly short bodied ones you see nowadays).

mstama - sorry about the various scientific stuff in your breeding thread, green terror questions always seem to fall into this.
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Postby DeadFishFloating » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:46 am

Great looking silver saum (A. Stalsbergi) Ronny_M.

For all our yank friends (and southerners), 8 cm is a tad over 3 inches. I'm amazed that such a small sized suam has such a large nuachal hump.
Dwarf Cichlids. Big personalities in small packages.
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