Lake Tanganyika Species • 20long or 29long for multi's and brevis

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Re: 20long or 29long for multi's and brevis

Postby Ptyochromis » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:07 pm

prov356 wrote:
Seachem prime is the best de-chlorinator by FAR.


I would disagree with that. I don't like the conditioners that throw in all the gimmicky, unnecessary stuff like the slime coat 'enhancers'. Go with a simple dechlorinator.


Sechem prime only deals with chlorine, chloramine, ammonia and nitrite. Doesn't do anything for a slime coat (although it says it does). It also only temporarily neutralizes ammonia (for 24h or so), which is very useful if you have lots of chloramine in your water as chloramine has ammonia in it. It can be useful to temporarily neutralize the ammonia that comes along with the chloramine so your filters have a chance to break it down. I like using it because it is rather inexpensive 10 USD for 500ml. It is also chalked full of sulfates ;). It probably accomplishes the same goal as your sulfate mixture but I the the convince of it; to each his own.

I also don't see the point of adding buffers, unless you are using RO/DI or something. The vast majority of water suppliers buffer their water as to help their pipes last longer. His water pre-water softener is within limits so there should be no reason to do anything to the water other than dechlor it.
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Re: 20long or 29long for multi's and brevis

Postby prov356 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:21 pm

I also don't see the point of adding buffers, unless you are using RO/DI or something. The vast majority of water suppliers buffer their water as to help their pipes last longer. His water pre-water softener is within limits so there should be no reason to do anything to the water other than dechlor it.


Too broad of a generalization and isn't always the case. All should test their source water. There have been lots of posts here over the years from folks with low buffers in their source water. It's not just for RO/DI. It's for any water with inadequate buffers. I wouldn't make a sweeping generalization to all that read here that they shouldn't worry about buffers ever. You'll get someone's tank in trouble eventually. In the OP's case, I'd agree, no need to buffer. I believe I said that in a previous post.
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Re: 20long or 29long for multi's and brevis

Postby Ptyochromis » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:43 am

prov356 wrote:
I also don't see the point of adding buffers, unless you are using RO/DI or something. The vast majority of water suppliers buffer their water as to help their pipes last longer. His water pre-water softener is within limits so there should be no reason to do anything to the water other than dechlor it.


Too broad of a generalization and isn't always the case. All should test their source water. There have been lots of posts here over the years from folks with low buffers in their source water. It's not just for RO/DI. It's for any water with inadequate buffers. I wouldn't make a sweeping generalization to all that read here that they shouldn't worry about buffers ever. You'll get someone's tank in trouble eventually. In the OP's case, I'd agree, no need to buffer. I believe I said that in a previous post.


I suppose you are right, I know well water can be especially soft. I suppose I take for granted that I get 8.2PH @ 7dKG/8dGH out of the tap. Sorry for being so argumentative :P.


kwilliby wrote:thank you for clarifying this . i think i understand now. my source non-softened water is just right. i'll keep an eye on the kh of the tank between water changes. i will test it again tonite before adding my fish. sorry if some of my questions were redundant. i just didn't understand these water measurements.

i'll let you know how it goes.


pH is more or less the measure of protons(H+) in the water/solution. Acids release protons(H+) which can be measured to determine the re-activity of the solution. pH is measured on a logarithmic scale, so a pH of 5 is 100 times more acidic than a pH of 6 and 6 is 10 times more acidic than 7 etc(I could be wrong on this, but I can't be bothered to do the math lol).

Op, just remember, KH is carbonate hardness; this is the ability to neutralize an acid. Carbonate and bicarbonate react with acids in water neutralizing them; I will spare you the details but basically the higher the KH the more carbonate/bicarbonate is disolved in the water and more acid can be added to the solution before PH changes are observed. You can observe this when you mix vinegar with baking soda or pour vinegar over texas holey rock.

GH, general hardness is just the measure of ions in the water.


This isn't a half bad read: http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/alkalinity.html
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Re: 20long or 29long for multi's and brevis

Postby kwilliby » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:18 pm

not to complicate matters any, but has anyone used the Seachem Multitest PH and Alkalinity test instead of the API KH/GH test? a local fish store guy tried to see me this for testing. i have to be honest. i get confused when they talk about two tests, PH and Alkalinity. I thought PH was acid of low, netral at 7.0 and higher was alkaline?

sorry if i'm dragging this on too long. :(
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Re: 20long or 29long for multi's and brevis

Postby prov356 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:04 pm

kwilliby wrote:not to complicate matters any, but has anyone used the Seachem Multitest PH and Alkalinity test instead of the API KH/GH test? a local fish store guy tried to see me this for testing. i have to be honest. i get confused when they talk about two tests, PH and Alkalinity. I thought PH was acid of low, netral at 7.0 and higher was alkaline?

sorry if i'm dragging this on too long. :(


It can get confusing, which is why I try to use simple terms in my own mind and here on the forum even if a chemist would cringe.

For pH, I think of it as either acidic, neutral, or alkaline.

If talking about raising KH, then I call it raising 'buffers', as it buffer's against a pH crash, or sudden drop to very acidic levels.

I reserve the term 'hardness' when referring to GH.

KH and pH go hand in hand. GH has little or nothing to do with either. I generally ignore it unless dealing with fish that require very soft water.

From a hobbyist standpoint, buffers, KH, and alkalinity refer to the same thing, but I avoid the use of the term 'alkalinity' here because it just tends to confuse.

So, my simple guideline is to keep KH (buffers) up to 8-10 or so to stabilize pH. If buffers are up, then pH will usually be on the alkaline side. How high depends, and reaching a specific value isn't important. Buffering water with sodium bicarbonate will usually bring the pH up to about 8.2 - 8.4. Don't adjust pH, adjust buffers and let pH fall where it will.

And, of course, we're talking about rift lake or other cichlids that like alkaline water.
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Re: 20long or 29long for multi's and brevis

Postby Ptyochromis » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:09 pm

Alkalinity = KH; AKA, the ability to neutralize an acid.

Never used seachem's tests, if they are test 'strips' don't use them. Liquid tests are far more reliable.
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Re: 20long or 29long for multi's and brevis

Postby kwilliby » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:57 pm

prov356 wrote:
kwilliby wrote:not to complicate matters any, but has anyone used the Seachem Multitest PH and Alkalinity test instead of the API KH/GH test? a local fish store guy tried to see me this for testing. i have to be honest. i get confused when they talk about two tests, PH and Alkalinity. I thought PH was acid of low, netral at 7.0 and higher was alkaline?

sorry if i'm dragging this on too long. :(


It can get confusing, which is why I try to use simple terms in my own mind and here on the forum even if a chemist would cringe.

For pH, I think of it as either acidic, neutral, or alkaline.

If talking about raising KH, then I call it raising 'buffers', as it buffer's against a pH crash, or sudden drop to very acidic levels.

I reserve the term 'hardness' when referring to GH.

KH and pH go hand in hand. GH has little or nothing to do with either. I generally ignore it unless dealing with fish that require very soft water.

From a hobbyist standpoint, buffers, KH, and alkalinity refer to the same thing, but I avoid the use of the term 'alkalinity' here because it just tends to confuse.

So, my simple guideline is to keep KH (buffers) up to 8-10 or so to stabilize pH. If buffers are up, then pH will usually be on the alkaline side. How high depends, and reaching a specific value isn't important. Buffering water with sodium bicarbonate will usually bring the pH up to about 8.2 - 8.4. Don't adjust pH, adjust buffers and let pH fall where it will.

And, of course, we're talking about rift lake or other cichlids that like alkaline water.



So it would be very possible for my Softened water to have a KH in the proper range but the GH could be much too soft for these fish?

I think i'll test my soft water again just for grins.
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Re: 20long or 29long for multi's and brevis

Postby Ptyochromis » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:09 pm

I would avoid using the 'softened water' in your aquarium. There are many different methods to soften water, many use chemicals and some even release sodium. I would stay away from the softened water and use only the water before it hits the softener. (No idea how you can stand to shower in that stuff; leaves my skin feeling soapy and icky :P).
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Re: 20long or 29long for multi's and brevis

Postby kwilliby » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:57 am

i'll use the pre-softened water. my other fish are in soft water. But I have noticed my kribensis have stopped spawning. maybe that has something to do with it.

at first the soft water seemed a little weird. but now i love it. makes my skin softer. :P
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